Exercise R Us

Question:

Of course, with me in your killfile, you never ever even have to THINK about ME! HURRAY!!! Jerry.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > Well, if thats the way we want this newsgroup > > > to be, then half of every poster here should > > > take it to private email. I see many > > > responses to Jerry’s posts. > > Not me! And, most of those that respond every single > > time, without snipping, are filtered. > My current pet peeve, as well. > I don;t respond to jerry either because he’s killfiled.  And I also > killfile people who can’t seem to get the hang of snipping, or who can’t > use the ninnyboy kill word in the subject line. > My current pet peeve, as well. > snip > Talking _to_ jerry is a complete and total waste of time and bandwidth. > He’s a troll, who’s never owned or trained a dog in his life. None of > the people in Orlanda have ever seen him training or even walking a dog. > Agreed. Totally. > However, directing comment > I think that most people should just killfile him.  And that the few who > don’t want to do so, would better serve everyone but using their > responses to warn others about the danger of listening to jerry. > At least as long as Road Runner, rr.com, is run by irresponsible idiots > willing to take jerry’s money.  They’re kinda the BYB of ISPs. > Do tell?!!! > (Like I’m surprised)! > BG! > But, as an unmoderated group, we can’t control that. > I’m happy when folks put ninnyboy or Jerry Howe in their headers. > Then,  I never see those posts. I’m happier still, when those folks > who want to spar with an acorn, just simply learn to snip. > > Terri

Response:

Hello GSE, You’ll find MY garbage more relevant and informative that anyone else’s garbage. It all depends on HOWE serious you are about improving the quality of your life for you and your dogs. Jerry. J;-)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tibbi and I most likely disagree on this issue, but: > go ahead and talk away, if you want, but… PLEASE!, > snip the extraneous non- relevant bandwidth wasting comments, > such as his ludicrous sig. file! > TIA, > Terri > I did try to snip out the irrelevent parts of > the postings to lessen the bandwidth and keep > it to the topic at hand. Everyone in this > group has something to say and the right to > say it. With some, you have to wade through > the garbage to get to the "something to say". >

Response:

Hello Tibbi, You got it! That’s the way to do it! For what it’s worth, with me in your killfile, you won’t EVER NEED to even THINK about ME anymore! HURRAY!!! Why don’t you tell people all about me. Tell them HOWE AFRAID of dogs I am, that I won’t JERK or CHOKE them, even if they get scared and growl at me. Tell them I’ll never be able to make a dog do any work unless I twist and pinch his ears, toes, and testicles, and shock "IT, until resisting your will fades in importance," to quote your buddy lyingfrostydahly… *(I’ll post a bit moore of her lying and hurting dog QUOTES taken from her own text, below. I’ll start off with her DENIAL of what she TEACHES. She and your pal lyinglynn seem pathological, just like yourself.) You are a supreme hypocrite. I hope this tickles you: cindymoron’s pages will advise people to knee dogs in the chest, pop them on the snout, stick fingers down their throats to choke them out of mouthing, scruff shake, chin cuff, jerk and choke dogs on pronged choke collars, shock dogs, pinch and twist their ears, stick their heads in water you’ve filled into holes they’ve dug, and throw them down by the ears and climb all over them like a wild animal…, HER MOST POWERFUL WEAPON IN HER ARSENAL, to ENHANCE the bond between ”trainer” and dog. What do you say? "Oh, that’s NICE, Jerry’s a liar." It’s all in their own writing. The ”experts” I have exposed, identified, and discredited, can only continue hurting dogs with YOUR approval. Nobody cares. That’s the point. Dogs DIE because of inappropriate training methods, and YOU couldn’t care less because it’s not you. Pinch a dogs ears and see if the don’t try to BITE you… What’s the remedy for an obstinate dog who is trying to bite you? koehler says that any refusal of the dog to perform a command is an affront to the authority of the handler. Sharp corrections are warranted. When a dog assaults his kindly handler for jerking and choking him with a pronged choke collar, the dog must be hung in the air until his eyes roll back in his head, his tongue turns thick and blue and falls out the side of his mouth, and when you put him back on the ground, he should stagger to his feet and PUKE or else you didn’t HANG him correctly. Dogs who do not rehabilitate after being hung are killed and the  blame is laid on ”idiopathic rage,” meaning ???, NOTHING. Or, they blame it on bad handling, i.e. being TOO LENIENT. But they never blame HURTING the dog, that he just couldn’t take being abused anymore. If the dog was sufficiently abused, they blame it on BAD BREEDING   The only bad breeding is in the Thugs we’ve got here. Most of our Gang Of Thugs are koehler trainers… Don’t believe me, ASK THEM. lyinglynn said "I LOVE KOEHLER." In order to endorse the koehler method, you must be prepared to hang dogs who object to the incrementally increasing force, violence, and intimidation. Koehler justifies hurting dogs for willfully disobeying commands as a direct affront to the trainers AUTHORITY. ASK THEM… Isn’t aggression a predictable response to jerking and choking and shocking and twisting and pinching ears, toes, and testicles, and beating dogs with sticks to MOTIVATE THEM? Here’s MORE: Amy Dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article, there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears.  I would never slap a dog. I would never advise anyone to slap a dog. I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." >> "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield

the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply.>>> >> Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog,">>> >> Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that

resisting your will fades in importance.>>> RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists… and chin cuff doesn’t mean hit, it means slap. amy lyingfrosty dahl continues:  With your hand on the collar and ear, say, "fetch." Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy.  ">>>Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch.>>> >>"but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to

escaping the ear pinch>>> >>You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your

thumb;>>> >> even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against

that>>> >>Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and

pinching its ear.>>> >> if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell.

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in>>>" AND HERE’S THE REST OF THE ROUNDUP: > Diane Blackman,

Yes, diane… She’s as confused and deceitful as they come. She knits cover-ups for pronged choke collars so she can train dogs illegally on akc showgrounds, and so that people won’t SEE the prongs and think the less of her… She twists words better than you can, BECAUSE SHE HASN’T GOT BAGGED FOR LYING, LIKE YOU DID. She’s got a dog who’s been a chronic puller for five years, and she day boards her dogs because she can’t trust them at home alone. Her links page has lots of lousy advice, but diane won’t edit the lousy ones that teach HURTING dogs, because she says she doesn’t know enough about training to discern good from bad information… Whaddaya thaink of that? > Janet Boss,

Jerks dogs around on pronged collars to make them friendly. She’s as incompetent a creature as G-D could possibly create. I’ll be throwing THAT in HIS face when I get there… She has no business telling people to kill their dogs because their only option is to jerk the dog around and keep him confined for the rest of his life. See the thread ”interested in hearing” and you’ll see for yourself HOWE you bums mishandle and kill dogs because you don’t have any IDEAS and can’t outwit a puppydog… > Susan Fraser,

susan twists and pinches ears and toes and shocks and chokes dogs on pronged choke collars. But she doesn’t hurt them. > Avrama Gingold,

Our Professora… She got her damned teeth knocked down her throat when her dog finally figured out HOWE to hurt her back, and make it look like an accident. That’s called allelomimetic behavior. avrama had a habit of jerking him to make him heel or come, but always made it look like the dog did it to himself. Dogs are smart. Don’t take my word for it, that’s in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual. > Lynn Kosmakos,

Our pathological liar? She jerks and chokes and hangs dogs according to the koehler method. She justifies force because there are so many dogs to HELP and such little time to HELP them all, at the shelter she kills dogs at. > Bob Maida,

What advice? "Don’t let him do that?" Killfiles is all he writes about. He can’t talk dog training because he is a violent dog trainer. If he opens his yap, I shove his foot in it for him and hammer on top of his head till he’s craping toenails… He’s no dog trainer. He said he recommends cindymoron’s Website to his ‘’students” and they tell him HOWE much they’ve benefited from it… cindymron’s site has instructions for sticking your fingers down puppies throats to choke them out of mouthing, kneeing the dog in the chest, shocking, throwing the dog down by his ears and climbing on him like a wild animal, pinching and twisting ears, choking, jerking, and sticking dog’s heads under water you’ve filled into a hole he’s dug to break dogs of digging. I guess boob’s student’s only learned the jerking and choking from him… Your pal boob had been begging his ”teacher” cap’n fagarty to debate me here, and smarten me up. He sent his little girl to write me a threatening letter saying she’d sue me if I told the truth here… Then, your pal boob suggested there would be a motorcycle gang paying me a little visit… Do you ride, lyindoc? I may be able to get you a good deal on some dead bikers machines. > Cindy Tittle Moore,

A true sadist. She gets pleasure for dominating and hurting dogs. Read her forced fetch page, that will show you HOWE excited she gets just at the thought of hurting dogs. Did you see my STAY-OUT-OF-JAIL CHALLENGE to cindymoron? Here’s the deal… We get her to force fetch train three dogs in front of a childs playground, and I’ll train three protection dogs in the same site, and we’ll see who the children are disturbed by, and who the parents are going to call the cops on… And then I’ll show ups as expert witness for the prosecution, and we’ll demonstrate her forced fetch in front of a criminal judge and jury… HOWE’S that for a FAIR TEST??? > Denna Pace,

Says she sees a lot of value in koehler… She’s got PLENTY of problems with her own dogs running away and being disobedient. > Marily Rammell,

what the hell is she doing in this lineup of Thugs? > John Richardson,

He only hurts dogs to save them from the needle. He’s as abusive and immature as they come. He’s a clone of dogman. The dogs he can’t hurt into being friendly, he KILLS in the shelter he HELPS in. Unlike yourself, he’s too stupid to be evil. He’s just doing what koehler taught him. > Ludwig Smith,

Another koehler trainer. He’s too cowardly to come out and say what he believes. He throws around lots of non advice, and then tells us we can get more help in koehler’s books. He’s got a link to cindymoron’s page on his sig file… > and Terri Willis.

The psycho clown. She wants to hurt dogs because she is compensating for her inferiority complex. She WANTS TO HURT DOGS.

Response:

> > > Well, if thats the way we want this newsgroup > > to be, then half of every poster here should > > take it to private email. I see many > > responses to Jerry’s posts. > Not me! And, most of those that respond every single > time, without snipping, are filtered.

My current pet peeve, as well. > I don;t respond to jerry either because he’s killfiled.  And I also > killfile people who can’t seem to get the hang of snipping, or who can’t > use the ninnyboy kill word in the subject line.

My current pet peeve, as well. snip > Talking _to_ jerry is a complete and total waste of time and bandwidth. > He’s a troll, who’s never owned or trained a dog in his life.  None of > the people in Orlanda have ever seen him training or even walking a dog.

Agreed. Totally. > However, directing comment > I think that most people should just killfile him.  And that the few who > don’t want to do so, would better serve everyone but using their > responses to warn others about the danger of listening to jerry. > At least as long as Road Runner, rr.com, is run by irresponsible idiots > willing to take jerry’s money.  They’re kinda the BYB of ISPs.

Do tell?!!! (Like I’m surprised)! BG! But, as an unmoderated group, we can’t control that. I’m happy when folks put ninnyboy or Jerry Howe in their headers. Then,  I never see those posts. I’m happier still, when those folks who want to spar with an acorn, just simply learn to snip. Terri

Response:

> > Well, if thats the way we want this newsgroup > to be, then half of every poster here should > take it to private email. I see many > responses to Jerry’s posts. > Not me! And, most of those that respond every single > time, without snipping, are filtered.

I don;t respond to jerry either because he’s killfiled.  And I also killfile people who can’t seem to get the hang of snipping, or who can’t use the ninnyboy kill word in the subject line. > At least I kept my responses to > him on topic, which I believe is about dogs > and different methods of training them? > Tibbi and I most likely disagree on this issue, but: > go ahead and talk away, if you want, but… PLEASE!, > snip the extraneous non- relevant bandwidth wasting comments, > such as his ludicrous sig. file!

Talking _to_ jerry is a complete and total waste of time and bandwidth.   He’s a troll, who’s never owned or trained a dog in his life.  None of the people in Orlanda have ever seen him training or even walking a dog. However, directing comments to people uninformed about jerry’s potential to harm dogs, that is something that would be a service to the public.   Esp. if done in a calm and intelligent manner.   I think that most people should just killfile him.  And that the few who don’t want to do so, would better serve everyone but using their responses to warn others about the danger of listening to jerry.   At least as long as Road Runner, rr.com, is run by irresponsible idiots willing to take jerry’s money.  They’re kinda the BYB of ISPs.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tibbi and I most likely disagree on this issue, but: > go ahead and talk away, if you want, but… PLEASE!, > snip the extraneous non- relevant bandwidth wasting comments, > such as his ludicrous sig. file! > TIA, > Terri >I did try to snip out the irrelevent parts of >the postings to lessen the bandwidth and keep >it to the topic at hand. Everyone in this >group has something to say and the right to >say it. With some, you have to wade through >the garbage to get to the "something to say". >8-)

Dognuts is a mental case. Your Pal, Jerry; ~} "Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and judge things by reason’s way, not by popular say." Montaigne "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin "If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman. DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… j;~) "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?: caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed. -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all. -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding. -Jerry Howe-

Response:

> Tibbi and I most likely disagree on this issue, but: > go ahead and talk away, if you want, but… PLEASE!, > snip the extraneous non- relevant bandwidth wasting comments, > such as his ludicrous sig. file! > TIA, > Terri

I did try to snip out the irrelevent parts of the postings to lessen the bandwidth and keep it to the topic at hand. Everyone in this group has something to say and the right to say it. With some, you have to wade through the garbage to get to the "something to say".

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > who gets a damn what conversation you want to have with that idiot > > jar-jar.  Take it to private email if you’re that intent on talking with > > that trolling dog-abuser. > Well, if thats the way we want this newsgroup > to be, then half of every poster here should > take it to private email. I see many > responses to Jerry’s posts. >Not me! And, most of those that respond every single >time, without snipping, are filtered. > Most of which are > off topic. >At least I kept my responses to > him on topic, which I believe is about dogs > and different methods of training them? >Tibbi and I most likely disagree on this issue, but: >go ahead and talk away, if you want, but… PLEASE!, >snip the extraneous non- relevant bandwidth wasting comments, >such as his ludicrous sig. file! >TIA, >Terri

Het dognuts why not tell everyone HOWE you abuse dogs to train them Your Pal, Jerry; ~} "Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and judge things by reason’s way, not by popular say." Montaigne "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin "If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman. DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… j;~) "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?: caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed. -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all. -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding. -Jerry Howe-

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> who gets a damn what conversation you want to have with that idiot > jar-jar.  Take it to private email if you’re that intent on talking with > that trolling dog-abuser. >Well, if thats the way we want this newsgroup >to be, then half of every poster here should >take it to private email. I see many >responses to Jerry’s posts. Most of which are >off topic. At least I kept my responses to >him on topic, which I believe is about dogs >and different methods of training them?

Response:

With me in your killfile, you don’t EVER even have to THINK about ME. HURRAY! Bye! Jerry. j;~}

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is going to get confusing to read with > all our replies kept in tact but here > goes…. > who gets a damn what conversation you want to have with that idiot > jar-jar.  Take it to private email if you’re that intent on talking with > that trolling dog-abuser.

Response:

> > who gets a damn what conversation you want to have with that idiot > jar-jar.  Take it to private email if you’re that intent on talking with > that trolling dog-abuser. > Well, if thats the way we want this newsgroup > to be, then half of every poster here should > take it to private email. I see many > responses to Jerry’s posts.

Not me! And, most of those that respond every single time, without snipping, are filtered.  Most of which are > off topic.

At least I kept my responses to > him on topic, which I believe is about dogs > and different methods of training them?

Tibbi and I most likely disagree on this issue, but: go ahead and talk away, if you want, but… PLEASE!, snip the extraneous non- relevant bandwidth wasting comments, such as his ludicrous sig. file! TIA, Terri

Response:

> who gets a damn what conversation you want to have with that idiot > jar-jar.  Take it to private email if you’re that intent on talking with > that trolling dog-abuser.

Well, if thats the way we want this newsgroup to be, then half of every poster here should take it to private email. I see many responses to Jerry’s posts. Most of which are off topic. At least I kept my responses to him on topic, which I believe is about dogs and different methods of training them?

Response:

> This is going to get confusing to read with > all our replies kept in tact but here > goes….

who gets a damn what conversation you want to have with that idiot jar-jar.  Take it to private email if you’re that intent on talking with that trolling dog-abuser.

Response:

>> This is going to get confusing to read with > all our replies kept in tact but here > goes…. >who gets a damn what conversation you want to have with that idiot >jar-jar.  Take it to private email if you’re that intent on talking with >that trolling dog-abuser.

Hey Tubbi go kill some more dogs you stupid mental case..Jerry;~}

Response:

Hello GSE, Excellent post. Thanks for straightening me out… I agree with what you are saying, but also realize that very few people really do not give sharp corrections with choke collars. For me, the only use for a choke chain is to "back up" a flat collar, if the dog is the sort who is going to back out of it. Usually, the dog backing out of a flat collar is because the handler is pulling, instead of properly controlling the dog. Let me give you a couple of tips. Below, you mentioned creating a sound everytime the dog looked at the trash bin, and praising him when he looked away, and giving him a treat for having discontinued going after or thinking about the trash. The problem is, that dogs think reflexively. In order to effectively break a behavior (not to diminish the fact that your technique worked, because it did), we need to create the sound at the first onset of the dog thinking about the malbehavior, and instantly give prolonged, non physical praise (five to fifteen seconds). The intent is to allow the dog to get back to thinking about repeating the inappropriate thought as quickly as possible, so that we may create ANOTHER distraction (i.e., the sound coming from another random direction), and once again instantly following the sound, NOT THE CESSATION OF THE BEHAVIOR, with prolonged non physical praise AGAIN. After a couple of such properly timed interruptions, the dog will think about engaging in the behavior and REFRAIN for a split second. That instant requires exuberant praise, to validate his thinking of NOT engaging in the behavior. Then, because we know the Nature of the Beast, we expect the dog will try one more attempt to have his way. Correcting him in exactly the same manner as previously will show the dog that we are going to be consistent, and his undesirable behavior will be broken. Because dogs do not generalize ideas well, the trash can should then be moved to another location, and the process repeated. And when that’s done, yet another location should be chosen, to teach the dog that no trash can anywhere, is appropriate to become involved with. Giving the dog a treat or physical praise in association with a training problem, will break the dog’s thinking too far away from our objective, and will lessen our opportunity to repeat our interruption and praise, while the ”iron is hot” so to speak. The ”interruption” of the thought process with a sound distraction often happens so quickly and can be so brief, that we miss the "pregnant moment" while waiting to SEE the dog’s response to the sound distraction. Marilyn has taken some video footage of this, and I think she shows it on her site. The interruption happens too fast to be notice live. That’s why the praise must instantly follow the sound, to be effective. We are interested in stopping the dogs THOUGHT, not his physical actions. By repeating the interruption and praise technique, the dog is not satisfied for engaging the inappropriate behavior, and quickly choose other options. We don’t want to interfere with his choice of options, we want only to continue interrupting inappropriate choices with distractions and praise, and praising the appropriate behavior… If that sounds like a lot of work praising the dog, that’s the Nature of the Beast. It’s a tough job, but somebody’s got to do it. Keep up the good work. Jerry.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is going to get confusing to read with > all our replies kept in tact but here > goes…. > Hello GSE, > Although I posted this, those are not MY words, it was a conversation > between two other trainers. > > > Yanking on a choke chain [also known as > > > a correction] does not choke a dog. It’s more like striking a dog > in > > > the windpipe with the side of your hand. > But I do agree with this statement. It is patently ABSURED to argue > this point… > > The point of a "choke" collar, I thought was > > not to yank on it and cause choking or > > striking of the windpipe but to almost jiggle > > it and get the two rings to clank together. > O.K. The diameter of the collar should be wide enough to not ”dig > in” to the dog’s throat. That’s what happens with a chain. If you > wanted to use a chain anyway, without constricting on the dog’s > throat, tie a knot in it so it won’t constrict… > I’ve done that, tied a knot in my big dog’s > chain collar. Flat collars don’t work well on > him. > But what is the intent of the sound? Is it to ”threaten” force? > I think so. Do you agree? HONESTLY? > Not in our case, I don’t use the collar as a > correction. The jingling gets him to look at > me again. About the same as if I snapped my > fingers to have him look at me. It’s just an > attention getter. > > The noise of the metal clicking is supposed > > to serve as the correction or reminder to the > > dog. > WHAT CORRECTION? > CORRECTIONS CAUSE AVERSION TO COMMANDS, AND ADVERSION IN THE DOG’S > LIFE. > And a REMINDER of WHAT??? That the choking comes NEXT? > Again, in our circumstances, the reminder is > for him to look at me. Pay attention. > > The collar is supposed to have lots of > > extra chain on it so you can make the sound > > *without* physically correcting the dog. > YOU MEAN IT’S ONLY INTENDED TO THREATEN? > But it isn’t a threat with us. I jingle, he > pays attention to me. Watches me more > closely. If I am walking downt he street with > him and another dog and owner apporach, if he > gets a little too excitable, I jingle, he > settles and pays more attention to me than to > the other dog. > We acheived that with treats in the > beginning. When I jingled, he’d look and he’d > get a treat and lots of praise. I slowly > weaned the treats out and only praised. > So we are what? threatening him with praise? > I snipped the other replies because this post > was getting way too messy. > With the trash bin example I gave, I > neglected to mention that after the first > time he was caught in it, anytime he walked > by, we would make a noise, any noise and when > he turned away from the bin, he got praise > and some of his kibble instead. We did that > for two days roughly, I think in total, about > 6 times and he has never gone near the can > again. That was over three years ago. > The down stay was so that I could clean up > the trash he dug out without him being there > to watch and get in the way, it was also a > way to seperate us while I chilled out. I do > the same with my kids. If they are really > getting me riled up, they go off for a time > out so mom can get control of herself and > deal with the problem without ranting ,raving > and yelling like some lunatic. > It worked for us.

Response:

>This is going to get confusing to read with >all our replies kept in tact but here >goes….

It’s not confusing in the least bit. You are a mental case, that is pretty clear Jerry. j;~}

Response:

This is going to get confusing to read with all our replies kept in tact but here goes…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hello GSE, > Although I posted this, those are not MY words, it was a conversation > between two other trainers. > > Yanking on a choke chain [also known as > > a correction] does not choke a dog. It’s more like striking a dog > in > > the windpipe with the side of your hand. > But I do agree with this statement. It is patently ABSURED to argue > this point… > The point of a "choke" collar, I thought was > not to yank on it and cause choking or > striking of the windpipe but to almost jiggle > it and get the two rings to clank together. > O.K. The diameter of the collar should be wide enough to not ”dig > in” to the dog’s throat. That’s what happens with a chain. If you > wanted to use a chain anyway, without constricting on the dog’s > throat, tie a knot in it so it won’t constrict…

I’ve done that, tied a knot in my big dog’s chain collar. Flat collars don’t work well on him. > But what is the intent of the sound? Is it to ”threaten” force? > I think so. Do you agree? HONESTLY?

Not in our case, I don’t use the collar as a correction. The jingling gets him to look at me again. About the same as if I snapped my fingers to have him look at me. It’s just an attention getter. > The noise of the metal clicking is supposed > to serve as the correction or reminder to the > dog. > WHAT CORRECTION? > CORRECTIONS CAUSE AVERSION TO COMMANDS, AND ADVERSION IN THE DOG’S > LIFE. > And a REMINDER of WHAT??? That the choking comes NEXT?

Again, in our circumstances, the reminder is for him to look at me. Pay attention. > The collar is supposed to have lots of > extra chain on it so you can make the sound > *without* physically correcting the dog. > YOU MEAN IT’S ONLY INTENDED TO THREATEN?

But it isn’t a threat with us. I jingle, he pays attention to me. Watches me more closely. If I am walking downt he street with him and another dog and owner apporach, if he gets a little too excitable, I jingle, he settles and pays more attention to me than to the other dog. We acheived that with treats in the beginning. When I jingled, he’d look and he’d get a treat and lots of praise. I slowly weaned the treats out and only praised. So we are what? threatening him with praise? I snipped the other replies because this post was getting way too messy. With the trash bin example I gave, I neglected to mention that after the first time he was caught in it, anytime he walked by, we would make a noise, any noise and when he turned away from the bin, he got praise and some of his kibble instead. We did that for two days roughly, I think in total, about 6 times and he has never gone near the can again. That was over three years ago. The down stay was so that I could clean up the trash he dug out without him being there to watch and get in the way, it was also a way to seperate us while I chilled out. I do the same with my kids. If they are really getting me riled up, they go off for a time out so mom can get control of herself and deal with the problem without ranting ,raving and yelling like some lunatic. It worked for us.

Response:

Hello GSE,

Although I posted this, those are not MY words, it was a conversation between two other trainers. > Yanking on a choke chain [also known as > a correction] does not choke a dog. It’s more like striking a dog in > the windpipe with the side of your hand.

But I do agree with this statement. It is patently ABSURED to argue this point… > The point of a "choke" collar, I thought was > not to yank on it and cause choking or > striking of the windpipe but to almost jiggle > it and get the two rings to clank together.

That’s what some of our experts say. The fact is, that myself, Marilyn, and most of the trainers I respect (only a couple post here because they get tired of arguing NOT hurting dogs to train them), USED to believe and handle the same way. We do not do so any longer, because WE’VE LEARNED THAT IT IS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. O.K. The diameter of the collar should be wide enough to not ”dig in” to the dog’s throat. That’s what happens with a chain. If you wanted to use a chain anyway, without constricting on the dog’s throat, tie a knot in it so it won’t constrict… But what is the intent of the sound? Is it to ”threaten” force? I think so. Do you agree? HONESTLY? > The noise of the metal clicking is supposed > to serve as the correction or reminder to the > dog.

WHAT CORRECTION? CORRECTIONS CAUSE AVERSION TO COMMANDS, AND ADVERSION IN THE DOG’S LIFE. And a REMINDER of WHAT??? That the choking comes NEXT? > The collar is supposed to have lots of > extra chain on it so you can make the sound > *without* physically correcting the dog.

YOU MEAN IT’S ONLY INTENDED TO THREATEN? What effect will threats of physical punishment have on a student we are trying to MOTIVATE to WANT TO WORK for us? > When you hear a trainer talk of a "verbal correction", that > means a threat of violence. > A verbal correction in my book is not a > threat of violence, just a way to let the dog > know he has done wrong.

Dogs do not think in terms of right and wrong. They think instinctively and reflexively. Right and Wrong are human thoughts. That’s HOWE COME I learned NOT to jerk or choke dogs to train them. I DISCOVERED that hurting or threatening dogs to train them is WRONG. It moves the STATE OF MIND from WHATEVER, to downtrodden, unsuccessful, fearful, and sets up an adversarial training relationship… > For example I walk into the kitchen and catch Rover with his > head in the garbage. I verbally correct by > changing my tone of voice and saying > "Rover?".

He immediately realizes that any time he wants to pull your chain for some additonal attention, all he’s got to do is go to the trash bin and dive in… You’ll be on him momentarily, and you’re off to the races. > He leaves the garbage and then I > further verbally correct by putting him in a > down/stay in another room, using the same > tone of voice.

THIS MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE TO THE DOG. He does NOT think of the following ”punishment” in regards to the trash, or whatever problem you are concerned with. It’s going to cause him extreme stress, that will be expiated through hyperactive behavior, excessive barking, compulsive chewing, pacing, diggin, whining, self-mutilation, and aggression. > Kind of a doggy "time out".

Means nothing to the dog, except maybe causes him to dwell on your unhappy frame of mind… ATTENTION that the dog gets is PAYING HIM OFF for whatever caused you to address him. This sets up the dog to learn a negative attention getting device. The entire time you ”enforce” the ”time out”, you are PAYING HIM ATTENTION… > Anytime I use a negative tone of voice, that > to me is a verbal correction.

And it causes extreme emotional stress to a dog. > And no one can tell me that dogs do not understand "tone of > voice".

Of course. And NO ONE can tell the dog WHY he is being reprimanded for a natural, instinctive, desire to scavenge… It’s SURVIVAL INSTINCT that drives him to the trash bin, not his blatant desire to louse up your weekend… > Because in my limited experience, > they certainly do. At least mine do.

The dog only recognizes that mom or dad is getting out of control, and causes the dog to be wary. We cannot successfully punish a dog for doing behaviors that Nature dictates are instinctive or reflexive. That sets YOU up as calling Mother Nature a LIAR… Think about it… The appropriate way to deal with a behavior like stealing trash, is to create a sound distraction and PRAISE. The sound distraction stops the dog from thinking about the inappropriate behavior (and being rewarded with his mouthful of garbage), and the praise allows him to think of WHATEVER might next come to his mind… If the NEXT behavior is appropriate, more praise will help teach THAT BEHAVIOR is preferable. If the dog resumes the undesirable behavior or chooses ANOTHER undesireable behavior, we simply create ANOTHER sound distraction and PRAISE, to break him out of thinking of the undesirable behavior. Controlling behaviors in this manner takes YOU out of the NEGATIVE ENFORCER or POLICEMAN position in your dog’s life, and makes EVERYTHING coming from you PLEASANT, and ENHANCES the bond between TRAINER and dog. > Other words to look out for from these trainers are reinforce, follow > through, well timed, leadership role, stubborn, willful, defiant, > alpha, top dog, firm, fair, discipline, conditioning, authority, back > up, enforce, consequence, responsibility, proofing, motivational, > effective, respect, deterrent, negative, communicate, message, > signal, indicator, obedience, session, and my favorite, FEE. > All of these words are often used because they sound much nicer > than what the trainer is really saying. > I use these words and my trainer used these > words and I can assure you, there was no > underlying meaning to them in our training > sessions.

Let’s start off by realizing that dogs do NOT think in the same terms our dog trainers do. Dogs DO NOT understand punishment, consequences, responsibility, discipline, deterrent, or any negative concepts. You might be able to associate a NEGATIVE experience with a behavior, but that doesn’t mean the dog will understand the behavior is negative… ONLY THAT HIS TRAINER IS ACTING NEGATIVELY AND OUT OF CONTROL. > I can tell you what each word means in our > house but thats a long list of words. > My point is, not everything you read is what > it seems. The written word is easy to > missconstrue due to lack of facial > expressions and body language.

O.K. Let’s make it PERFECTLY CLEAR. ANY NEGATIVE OR CONFRONTATIONAL OR PHYSICAL RESTRICTIONS for natural, innate, instinctive, reflexive behaviors CAUSE YOU TO BE REGARDED by your dog as being IN CONFLICT with Mother Nature, and therfore YOU are NOT to be TRUSTED… EASY, huh? > Lumping everyone who uses those words into one > category isn’t a fair assumption.

O.K. Let’s CEASE ALL assumptions: Everyone who advocates ANY physical or emotional fear, force, or confrontation to a learning experience, is OUT OF CONTROL, and IN CONFLICT with NATURE. HOWE’S THAT??? BEWARE the warnings offered to you from our rpdb Gang Of Thugs regarding my posts and the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual. You cannot trust your dog’s well being to people who tell you to killfile my advice… and tell you to punish, confine, and confront your dog’s behavior problems. Our Gang Of Thugs are easily identifiable by their warnings about my posts, and their killfile instructions to prevent me from EXPOSING THEM as the vicious, abusive, cretins they are, AND WANT YOU TO BE. You can get all the information you need to properly handle and train your dog using non force, non confrontational, scientific and psychological behavior modification and conditioning techniques, from the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for free at http://www.doggydoright.com "Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and judge things by reason’s way, not by popular say." Montaigne "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin "If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman. DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… j;~) "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The … read more »

Response:

> Yanking on a choke chain [also known as > a correction] does not choke a dog. It’s more like striking a dog in > the windpipe with the side of your hand.

The point of a "choke" collar, I thought was not to yank on it and cause choking or striking of the windpipe but to almost jiggle it and get the two rings to clank together. The noise of the metal clicking is supposed to serve as the correction or reminder to the dog. The collar is supposed to have lots of extra chain on it so you can make the sound *without* physically correcting the dog. > When you hear a trainer talk of a "verbal correction", that > means a threat of violence.

A verbal correction in my book is not a threat of violence, just a way to let the dog know he has done wrong. For example I walk into the kitchen and catch Rover with his head in the garbage. I verbally correct by changing my tone of voice and saying "Rover?". He leaves the garbage and then I further verbally correct by putting him in a down/stay in another room, using the same tone of voice. Kind of a doggy "time out". Anytime I use a negative tone of voice, that to me is a verbal correction. And no one can tell me that dogs do not understand "tone of voice". Because in my limited experience, they certainly do. At least mine do. > Other words to look out for from these trainers are reinforce, follow > through, well timed, leadership role, stubborn, willful, defiant, > alpha, > top dog, firm, fair, discipline, conditioning, authority, back up, > enforce, > consequence, responsibility, proofing, motivational, effective, > respect, > deterrent, negative, communicate, message, signal, indicator, > obedience, session, and my favorite, FEE. > All of these words are often used because they sound much nicer > than what the trainer is really saying.

I use these words and my trainer used these words and I can assure you, there was no underlying meaning to them in our training sessions. I can tell you what each word means in our house but thats a long list of words. My point is, not everything you read is what it seems. The written word is easy to missconstrue due to lack of facial expressions and body language. Lumping everyone who uses those words into one category isn’t a fair assumption.

Response:

Hello People, Here’s a discussion having nothing to do with me… I’m not in this discussion: >TOJ– >You’ve got people saying hurt your dog. >CINDY MOORE– >Quotes, please.

Does it seem crazy that somebody has to be anonymous to feel safe telling you not to hurt your dog? That’s exactly what the point is. In a sane world these trainers and experts would be ashamed to tell you to hurt your dog. Even if they used special nice words like "correction" they would still be ashamed to tell you to hurt dogs. They’d be ashamed to let any of us know that they do these things to dogs. The world is so screwed up that somebody who just wants to say DON’T HURT YOUR DOGS has to write it anonymously. I don’t want somebody to show up at my door to administer a well timed correction as a consequence of my willful disobedience, then charge my husband the standard fee for the behavior modification session. Trainers and dog owners use a kind of special language they’ve developed. They have come up with many euphemisms to help hide what they are actually doing to the dogs. Janet Boss is right though. Yanking on a choke chain [also known as a correction] does not choke a dog. It’s more like striking a dog in the windpipe with the side of your hand. These "corrections" take many forms. Most of the time it would make more sense to call them assaults. When you hear a trainer talk of a "verbal correction", that means a threat of violence. Other words to look out for from these trainers are reinforce, follow through, well timed, leadership role, stubborn, willful, defiant, alpha, top dog, firm, fair, discipline, conditioning, authority, back up, enforce, consequence, responsibility, proofing, motivational, effective, respect, deterrent, negative, communicate, message, signal, indicator, obedience, session, and my favorite, FEE. All of these words are often used because they sound much nicer than what the trainer is really saying. What the trainer is saying is BE YOUR DOG’S ENEMY. If you tell the trainer that this is what he is saying then the trainer will say that it’s the exact opposite. That he is showing you how to BE YOUR DOG’S FRIEND, that dog’s respect a strong leader. The trainer can’t see past the emotional thrill he gets from scaring dogs out of and into other behaviors. Then you will pay the trainer his fee. He will leave and you’re the one who has to live with the enemy you have made of your own dog. The saddest part is that sometimes the dogs still act like you’re their friend even if you do all the things the trainer said to do to them. That’s when you want to do what so many of these trainers say to do and then don’t. Look at it from the dog’s way of thinking. What choice does your dog have? He’s totally dependent on you. That’s also a big thrill for these trainers. When the dogs do choose their few available other options, the trainers call them willful, stubborn, aggressive, or dangerous. That’s because the dogs are disrupting the illusion of control and power these trainers have. That’s when the trainers get really violent. Some of them are true professionals and are very good at hiding their anger. All of them are full of crap. One thing’s for sure, when you see the word "correction" you can be sure some poor dog is in for a rough ride. Here are some examples of how to speak like a dog trainer>>>>>

http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/ ***** >       *** Southern California Lab Rescue:

http://www.sclrr.org/ *** firm corrections get the point across without injury. If you decide that some action requires correction, *always* give a correction when you see that action. For example, if you decide that your dog is not allowed on the sofa, then *always* correct it when you see it on the sofa. Eye contact: alphas "stare down" subordinates. If your dog does not back down in a stare contest, start a verbal correction. As soon as it backs down, praise it. Grabbing under the ears: alpha dogs will chomp under subordinate dogs’ ears and shake. You can mimic this by holding the skin under your dog’s ears firmly and shaking. Again, do not use excessive force. Do this just enough to get the point across. DO NOT grab the top of the neck and shake. You may injure your dog this way. This is a fairly important point. If your dog seems to have trouble obeying a particular family member, you must make sure it does so, by always backing up the family member when he or she tells the dog to do something Do NOT touch the dog (stand on the leash or tie it down). If it does growl, spray it with water. Switch the dogs so that each experiences sitting or walking toward. They are learning that good things happen without defensive behavior. As they improve, start walking a bit closer before turning. If the sitting dog snarls, do NOT turn the other dog away: the person with the sitting dog should correct it and when the dog subsides, THEN the moving dog should turn away. With older puppies and dogs, say "NO BITE" sternly and withdraw your hand. In general, correct it immediately when it jumps on you, Try to anticipate the jumping: look for their hindquarters beginning to crouch down, and correct them when you see them *about* to jump. With medium-sized dogs, you can discourage jumping with a well-timed knee in the chest (never kick). This does not work as well on small dogs and very large dogs. With small dogs, step back so they miss you; you can also splay your hand in front of you so their face bumps into it (don’t hit them, let them bump into you). Correct, then praise when on ground. With larger dogs, the kind that don’t really *jump*, but *place* their paws on your shoulders, grab some skin below their ears (be firm but not rough) and pull them down, saying "No!" Again, praise it when it is back on ground. Gradually expand this to include friends and visitors. Start first with people who understand what you want to do and will apply the physical correction in conjunction with your "No!" correct unpermitted jumping. TOJ

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