Question:

And why wouldn’t it be legal? Just more of the same old crying when it is done to them what they have done to others. — Criticizing a religion is something that makes people squeamish, especially in the paranoid culture of political correctness. http://www.prophetofdoom.net/prologue.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> *** PENTAGON REPORT ARGUES TORTURE IS LEGAL IN WAR ON TERROR *** > A classified Pentagon report, providing a series of legal arguments > apparently intended to justify abuses and torture against detainees, appears > to undermine public assurances by senior U.S. officials, including President > George W. Bush that the military would never resort to such practices in the > "war on terrorism." > Excerpted from a new global affairs commentary available in full at > http://www.fpif.org/commentary/2004/0406torturelegal.html).

Response:

Izlam is very intolerant indeed, but swine can live without fear of slaughter.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> *** PENTAGON REPORT ARGUES TORTURE IS LEGAL IN WAR ON TERROR *** > A classified Pentagon report, providing a series of legal arguments > apparently intended to justify abuses and torture against detainees, appears > to undermine public assurances by senior U.S. officials, including President > George W. Bush that the military would never resort to such practices in the > "war on terrorism." > Excerpted from a new global affairs commentary available in full at > http://www.fpif.org/commentary/2004/0406torturelegal.html).

Response:

Journalists from outside were able to visit places in Iraq where prisoners of Saddam Hussein’s regime had been held. When the Kurds captured Kirkuk, Gwynne Roberts described a visit: ‘ ‘The Kurds guided me into the pitch-black vaults of the security building used as a torture centre. In one cell pieces of human flesh -ear lobes -were nailed to the wall, and blood spattered the ceiling. A large metal fan hung from the ceiling and my guide told me prisoners were attached to the fan and beaten with clubs as they twirled. There were hooks in the ceiling used to suspend victims. A torture victim told me that prisoners were also crucified, nails driven through their hands into the wall. A favourite technique was to hang men from the hooks and attach a heavy weight to their testicles. ‘ ‘These reports were rightly front-page news, but that was partly because Saddam Hussein was the enemy in the Gulf War. The appalling nature of his regime was highly visible and the world was ready to listen to such accounts. For years Amnesty International and others had been reporting similar tortures in Iraq, with little resulting publicity. ‘ ‘And from Kuwait, soon after the Iraqis were driven out, came reports that it was the turn of Palestinians to be tortured. Victims of the new wave of torture were interviewed in Farwaniya Hospital. One Palestinian had half his body ‘1 was tortured with electrical shocks. I became paralysed. ..I was held by an intelligence unit. ..I do not know what is my destiny. I was captured only because I am a Palestinian. They threw me in this hospital. I want to get out of here…out of Kuwait…Please help me. ‘ One thing is clear from this. Cruelty infects the victims like a virus. It spreads itself, transmits itself through violence and anger aimed at the original perpetrator, you can become the perpetrator as well. Cruelty enhances domination. In domination there is safety. Saddam Hussein and others like him are perpetually concerned with personal safety, at the same time as they undermine it by greater and greater acts of cruelty. Glover goes on: ‘Three factors seem central. There is a love of cruelty. Also, emotionally inadequate people assert themselves by dominance and cruelty. And the resources which restrain cruelty can be neutralized. ‘ ‘ ….. Sometimes cruel treatment is a means to an end, such as intimidation. Fear abduction and torture was used to deter criticism by the military dictatorship in Argentina. Some Argentinians who brought habeas corpus cases on behalf of people who had ‘disappeared’ started to ‘disappear’ themselves. ‘ ‘ ….. Some of the appeal is that of exercising power over victims. Jacobo Timerman was tortured in Argentina under the military regime. He noticed sometimes a bond developed between torturer and victim, who could come to need each other. The victim could need a human voice. "For the torturer, it is a sense of omnipotence… the torturer needs to be needed by the tortured." He described one of the men offering him coffee, food and a blanket. Timerman refused the man’s offer to go to bed with a woman prisoner. His refusal made the man angry: "In some way he needs to demonstrate to me and to himself his capacity to grant things, to alter my world, my situation. To demonstrate to me that I need things that are inaccessible to me and which only he can provide." Those higher up also enjoyed the exercise of power. General Galtieri visited a centre where prisoners were held. To one woman, who had been blindfolded and tortured for months, he said,"If I say you live, you live, and if I say you die, you die. As it happens, you have the same Christian name as my daughter, and so you live." ‘

 *** PENTAGON REPORT ARGUES TORTURE IS LEGAL IN WAR ON TERROR ***

Response:

*** PENTAGON REPORT ARGUES TORTURE IS LEGAL IN WAR ON TERROR *** A classified Pentagon report, providing a series of legal arguments apparently intended to justify abuses and torture against detainees, appears to undermine public assurances by senior U.S. officials, including President George W. Bush that the military would never resort to such practices in the "war on terrorism." Excerpted from a new global affairs commentary available in full at http://www.fpif.org/commentary/2004/0406torturelegal.html).

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> —–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– > Hash: SHA1 >> I’m not sure imposing a fat tax is the right answer here.  Think >> about how that would affect the diets of those who work hard to >> maintain their bodies, and have better genetic metabolism, etc. >> Throwing out a blanket fat tax would do no real good, IMO, or be >> fair. > Percentage of body fat (a legit measurement). > ++ Gray // > Are you going to stand in Walmart with a pair of calipers?

[chuckle] You’re assigning enemyship (<– new) where it’s not deserved. I was simply stating how one measure bodys fat. I even had one guy checked in a flotation tank (and he passed the fat boy test, too). > Get real! > Lady Veteran

1. I had a guy in Korea who was – by charts as well as by % of body fat – usually (but not always) fat; by about 35 pounds. GT was 155 and he always made as least 280 on every physical training test. [For a constant PT score of at least 280 and a GT of 155 and an excellent tech at that, I could care less if the person has one or three legs, one or three arms and wears both a   brassiere and a jock strap.] 2. That guy also received a "Certificate of Graduation" rather the "Standard Certificate" when he finished his MOS school (33S10 – we were both in the same company at Fort Devens, both went to Fort Polk and both ended up in the 332d at Oijongbu (Camp Red Cloud)). If I hadn’t been his First Sergeant at Fort Polk and realized what was happening, he never would have gotten his "earned" graduation certificate. 3. An ElTee (with whom I /always/ had a personaliy conflict (I had one and he didn’t)) and I were having a gigantic, screaming argument about this and I made the remark that if the ElTee had "George" and I both in a combat area and he went down as a casulty, would he rather have "George", at 230 lbs pick him up (and, probably put him in his pocket – cuz he didn’t notice the extra 170 lbs – or have me at 5′10 and under 150 lbs try to carry him (and he outweighed me by quite a bit). I never did get his answer because the door to the CO’s office was open, we were yelling and the old man told us both to "get the [naughty word] out of my orderly RIGHT NOW"!! Gray Shockley Seen on a television (I think) movie: Chain-of Command asks a female soldier what is her mission; "To kill the enemy and break their toys, Sir!" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "I rode a tank and held a general’s rank > when the blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank…" > – -Rolling Stones, Sympathy for the Devil > People who hide behind anonymous remailers and > ridicule fat people are cowardly idiots with no > motive but malice. > "To Do Is To Be" Socrates > "To Be Is To Do" Plato > "Do Be Do Be Do" Sinatra > —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– > Version: PGP 8.0 – not licensed for commercial use: www.pgp.com > iQA/AwUBQNdafMjazA1WMM1JEQIgCQCgj9yzBtXWB7lRYROducQhjN6KqMgAoM5a > 5C0WslD730dBH0WEZxwKUeIH > =0eBr > —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

> I’m not sure imposing a fat tax is the right answer here.  Think about > how that would affect the diets of those who work hard to maintain > their bodies, and have better genetic metabolism, etc.  Throwing out a > blanket fat tax would do no real good, IMO, or be fair.

Percentage of body fat (a legit measurement).    ++ Gray //

Response:

>I’m not sure imposing a fat tax is the right answer here.  Think about >how that would affect the diets of those who work hard to maintain >their bodies, and have better genetic metabolism, etc.  Throwing out a >blanket fat tax would do no real good, IMO, or be fair.

Tax the health problems of the fat where it hurts:         ABOLISH HEALTH INSURANCE! Everyone pays for his/her OWN medical costs.                                                 Gordon L. Burditt

Response:

>> I’m not sure imposing a fat tax is the right answer here.  Think about > how that would affect the diets of those who work hard to maintain > their bodies, and have better genetic metabolism, etc.  Throwing out a > blanket fat tax would do no real good, IMO, or be fair. > Tax the health problems of the fat where it hurts: >    ABOLISH HEALTH INSURANCE! > Everyone pays for his/her OWN medical costs. >                                            Gordon L. Burditt

Are you leading the way? Have you canceled (or in other ways deleted) your health insurance? Gray Shockley For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.  - H. L. Mencken

Response:

>By ZACH PARSI >Oct. 08, 2002 >Adipose Nation >It

Question:

  What’s the difference between having pabties or diapers on your heads. The Shi’ites have a novel approach. they use a space saver spare tire!   > Abu Ghraib of Our Dreams   > by Abe Arias   >   > I dreamt of Abu Ghraib and the house of horrors committed by our armed   > forces. I saw in the night those barbarous acts under the direction of our   > commander-in-chief. I considered the responsibility of the White House for   > such grotesque acts because I remember that a commander is responsible for   > the actions of his troops. Far from being a singular act of violence and   > humiliation, I see nothing but a program of systematic torture and abuse   > spread throughout the string of prisons around the globe, manned by our boys   > and girls in uniform.   >   > I have also seen our American Government take control over the lives and   > destinies of hapless Iraqis and Afghans who were born with the same   > God-given rights to freedom of speech, association and self-governance. Our   > Government boastfully screams from her beastly lungs that we must stop   > Terror at all costs, and in so doing terrorize others in the process. This   > is just another state program based on an insidious state answer, costing us   > our wealth and freedom.   >   > More>>   > http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/arias/arias5.html   >   >

Response:

> It’s true, quit crying like baby. > We, the world, know that you got your ass kicked!

Don’t include us real world-citizens in your shit. — Frankymole

Response:

Abu Ghraib of Our Dreams by Abe Arias I dreamt of Abu Ghraib and the house of horrors committed by our armed forces. I saw in the night those barbarous acts under the direction of our commander-in-chief. I considered the responsibility of the White House for such grotesque acts because I remember that a commander is responsible for the actions of his troops. Far from being a singular act of violence and humiliation, I see nothing but a program of systematic torture and abuse spread throughout the string of prisons around the globe, manned by our boys and girls in uniform. I have also seen our American Government take control over the lives and destinies of hapless Iraqis and Afghans who were born with the same God-given rights to freedom of speech, association and self-governance. Our Government boastfully screams from her beastly lungs that we must stop Terror at all costs, and in so doing terrorize others in the process. This is just another state program based on an insidious state answer, costing us our wealth and freedom. More>> http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/arias/arias5.html

Response:

  Put some panties on that..   > Abu Ghraib of Our Dreams   > by Abe Arias   >   > I dreamt of Abu Ghraib and the house of horrors committed by our armed   > forces. I saw in the night those barbarous acts under the direction of our   > commander-in-chief. I considered the responsibility of the White House for   > such grotesque acts because I remember that a commander is responsible for   > the actions of his troops. Far from being a singular act of violence and   > humiliation, I see nothing but a program of systematic torture and abuse   > spread throughout the string of prisons around the globe, manned by our boys   > and girls in uniform.   >   > I have also seen our American Government take control over the lives and   > destinies of hapless Iraqis and Afghans who were born with the same   > God-given rights to freedom of speech, association and self-governance. Our   > Government boastfully screams from her beastly lungs that we must stop   > Terror at all costs, and in so doing terrorize others in the process. This   > is just another state program based on an insidious state answer, costing us   > our wealth and freedom.   >   > More>>   > http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/arias/arias5.html

Response:

It’s true, quit crying like baby. We, the world, know that you got your ass kicked! And the more you complain the more the world laugh at you. Here that? it is the world laughing at your sorry ass. LOL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->   Put some panties on your head. You dune baboons will be exeunt by 2100. >   > And so have you Imperialistic Shit Head. Look at you fucking history. >   > Now someone finally kicked you in the ass and all you do is wine and >   > complaint. >   > Be a man, take it. Binladen kicked your ass and there is nothing you can > do >   > now. >   > > You must realize that the izlamos wants our culture and civilation to >   > > perish. That is why is important to keep at cheek those who have > brought >   > us >   > > nothing but war, loss of security, loss of privacy and discord. For >   > > thousands of years the muzlims has been destroying the smallest notion > of >   > > freedom across the Middle East. >   > > Let us make a new beginning today so that we can prevent the Izlamo >   > > destroying our civil liberties. > message >   > >  I dreamt of Abu Ghraib

Response:

  Put some panties on your head. You dune baboons will be exeunt by 2100.   > And so have you Imperialistic Shit Head. Look at you fucking history.   > Now someone finally kicked you in the ass and all you do is wine and   > complaint.   > Be a man, take it. Binladen kicked your ass and there is nothing you can do   > now.   >   > > You must realize that the izlamos wants our culture and civilation to   > > perish. That is why is important to keep at cheek those who have brought   > us   > > nothing but war, loss of security, loss of privacy and discord. For   > > thousands of years the muzlims has been destroying the smallest notion of   > > freedom across the Middle East.   > >   > > Let us make a new beginning today so that we can prevent the Izlamo   > > destroying our civil liberties.   > > message   > >   > >   > >  I dreamt of Abu Ghraib   > >   > >   >   >

Response:

And so have you Imperialistic Shit Head. Look at you fucking history. Now someone finally kicked you in the ass and all you do is wine and complaint. Be a man, take it. Binladen kicked your ass and there is nothing you can do now.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You must realize that the izlamos wants our culture and civilation to > perish. That is why is important to keep at cheek those who have brought us > nothing but war, loss of security, loss of privacy and discord. For > thousands of years the muzlims has been destroying the smallest notion of > freedom across the Middle East. > Let us make a new beginning today so that we can prevent the Izlamo > destroying our civil liberties. >  I dreamt of Abu Ghraib

Response:

Journalists from outside were able to visit places in Iraq where prisoners of Saddam Hussein’s regime had been held. When the Kurds captured Kirkuk, Gwynne Roberts described a visit: ‘ ‘The Kurds guided me into the pitch-black vaults of the security building used as a torture centre. In one cell pieces of human flesh -ear lobes -were nailed to the wall, and blood spattered the ceiling. A large metal fan hung from the ceiling and my guide told me prisoners were attached to the fan and beaten with clubs as they twirled. There were hooks in the ceiling used to suspend victims. A torture victim told me that prisoners were also crucified, nails driven through their hands into the wall. A favourite technique was to hang men from the hooks and attach a heavy weight to their testicles. ‘ ‘These reports were rightly front-page news, but that was partly because Saddam Hussein was the enemy in the Gulf War. The appalling nature of his regime was highly visible and the world was ready to listen to such accounts. For years Amnesty International and others had been reporting similar tortures in Iraq, with little resulting publicity. ‘ ‘And from Kuwait, soon after the Iraqis were driven out, came reports that it was the turn of Palestinians to be tortured. Victims of the new wave of torture were interviewed in Farwaniya Hospital. One Palestinian had half his body ‘1 was tortured with electrical shocks. I became paralysed. ..I was held by an intelligence unit. ..I do not know what is my destiny. I was captured only because I am a Palestinian. They threw me in this hospital. I want to get out of here…out of Kuwait…Please help me. ‘ One thing is clear from this. Cruelty infects the victims like a virus. It spreads itself, transmits itself through violence and anger aimed at the original perpetrator, you can become the perpetrator as well. Cruelty enhances domination. In domination there is safety. Saddam Hussein and others like him are perpetually concerned with personal safety, at the same time as they undermine it by greater and greater acts of cruelty. Glover goes on: ‘Three factors seem central. There is a love of cruelty. Also, emotionally inadequate people assert themselves by dominance and cruelty. And the resources which restrain cruelty can be neutralized. ‘ ‘ ….. Sometimes cruel treatment is a means to an end, such as intimidation. Fear abduction and torture was used to deter criticism by the military dictatorship in Argentina. Some Argentinians who brought habeas corpus cases on behalf of people who had ‘disappeared’ started to ‘disappear’ themselves. ‘ ‘ ….. Some of the appeal is that of exercising power over victims. Jacobo Timerman was tortured in Argentina under the military regime. He noticed sometimes a bond developed between torturer and victim, who could come to need each other. The victim could need a human voice. "For the torturer, it is a sense of omnipotence… the torturer needs to be needed by the tortured." He described one of the men offering him coffee, food and a blanket. Timerman refused the man’s offer to go to bed with a woman prisoner. His refusal made the man angry: "In some way he needs to demonstrate to me and to himself his capacity to grant things, to alter my world, my situation. To demonstrate to me that I need things that are inaccessible to me and which only he can provide." Those higher up also enjoyed the exercise of power. General Galtieri visited a centre where prisoners were held. To one woman, who had been blindfolded and tortured for months, he said,"If I say you live, you live, and if I say you die, you die. As it happens, you have the same Christian name as my daughter, and so you live." ‘

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Abu Ghraib of Our Dreams

Response:

Journalists covering the Gulf War described what Saddam Hussein’s Iraqi forces had done to the Kuwaitis. Among the many cruel acts reported, a few individual cases stand out. Hisham al-Abadan, the gynaecologist at Mubarak al-Kabeer hospital, who gave medical treatment to people the Iraqis did not approve of, was found dead with his nails and eyes gouged out. A twenty-year-old woman who was arrested by the Iraqis had all her hair cut off, was repeatedly raped over a period of two months, and, pregnant, was electrocuted. Before she died she had ‘her breasts cut off and her belly sliced open’. ‘ ‘Ahmad Qbazard was a nineteen-year-old Kuwaiti held by the Iraqis. An Iraqi officer told his parents he was about to be released. ‘ ‘They were overjoyed, cooked wonderful things, and when they heard cars approaching went to the door. When Ahmad was taken out of the car, they saw that his ears, his nose and his genitalia had been cut off. He was coming out of the car with his eyes in his hands. Then the Iraqis shot him, once in the stomach and once in the head, and told his mother to be sure not to move the body for three days. ‘ ‘Journalists from outside were able to visit places in Iraq where prisoners of Saddam Hussein’s regime had been held. When the Kurds captured Kirkuk, Gwynne Roberts described a visit: ‘ ‘The Kurds guided me into the pitch-black vaults of the security building used as a torture centre. In one cell pieces of human flesh -ear lobes -were nailed to the wall, and blood spattered the ceiling. A large metal fan hung from the ceiling and my guide told me prisoners were attached to the fan and beaten with clubs as they twirled. There were hooks in the ceiling used to suspend victims. A torture victim told me that prisoners were also crucified, nails driven through their hands into the wall. A favourite technique was to hang men from the hooks and attach a heavy weight to their testicles. ‘ ‘These reports were rightly front-page news, but that was partly because Saddam Hussein was the enemy in the Gulf War. The appalling nature of his regime was highly visible and the world was ready to listen to such accounts. For years Amnesty International and others had been reporting similar tortures in Iraq, with little resulting publicity. ‘ ‘And from Kuwait, soon after the Iraqis were driven out, came reports that it was the turn of Palestinians to be tortured. Victims of the new wave of torture were interviewed in Farwaniya Hospital. One Palestinian had half his body ‘1 was tortured with electrical shocks. I became paralysed. ..I was held by an intelligence unit. ..I do not know what is my destiny. I was captured only because I am a Palestinian. They threw me in this hospital. I want to get out of here…out of Kuwait…Please help me. ‘ One thing is clear from this. Cruelty infects the victims like a virus. It spreads itself, transmits itself through violence and anger aimed at the original perpetrator, you can become the perpetrator as well. Cruelty enhances domination. In domination there is safety. Saddam Hussein and others like him are perpetually concerned with personal safety, at the same time as they undermine it by greater and greater acts of cruelty.

 I dreamt of Abu Ghraib and the house of babbons ….

Response:

You must realize that the izlamos wants our culture and civilation to perish. That is why is important to keep at cheek those who have brought us nothing but war, loss of security, loss of privacy and discord. For thousands of years the muzlims has been destroying the smallest notion of freedom across the Middle East. Let us make a new beginning today so that we can prevent the Izlamo destroying our civil liberties.  I dreamt of Abu Ghraib

Response:

‘Journalists from outside were able to visit     places in Iraq where prisoners of Saddam Hussein’s     regime had been held. When the Kurds captured     Kirkuk, Gwynne Roberts described a visit: ‘         ‘The Kurds guided me into the pitch-black     vaults of the security building used as a torture     centre. In one cell pieces of human flesh -ear     lobes -were nailed to the wall, and blood     spattered the ceiling. A large metal fan hung from     the ceiling and my guide told me prisoners were     attached to the fan and beaten with clubs as they     twirled. There were hooks in the ceiling used to     suspend victims. A torture victim told me that     prisoners were also crucified, nails driven     through their hands into the wall. A favourite     technique was to hang men from the hooks and     attach a heavy weight to their testicles. ‘         ‘These reports were rightly front-page news,     but that was partly because Saddam Hussein was the     enemy in the Gulf War. The appalling nature of his     regime was highly visible and the world was ready     to listen to such accounts. For years Amnesty     International and others had been reporting     similar tortures in Iraq, with little resulting     publicity. ‘         ‘And from Kuwait, soon after the Iraqis were     driven out, came reports that it was the turn of     Palestinians to be tortured. Victims of the new     wave of torture were interviewed in Farwaniya     Hospital. One Palestinian had half his body     ‘1 was tortured with electrical shocks. I became     paralysed. ..I was held by an intelligence unit.     ..I do not know what is my destiny. I was captured     only because I am a Palestinian. They threw me in     this hospital. I want to get out of here…out of     Kuwait…Please help me. ‘ One thing is clear from this. Cruelty infects the victims like a virus. It spreads itself, transmits itself through violence and anger aimed at the original perpetrator, you can become the perpetrator as well. Cruelty enhances domination. In domination there is safety. Saddam Hussein and others like him are perpetually concerned with personal safety, at the same time as they undermine it by greater and greater acts of cruelty.

 Abu Ghraib of Our Dreams

Response:

> Abu Ghraib of Our Dreams > by Abe Arias > I dreamt of Abu Ghraib and the house of horrors committed by our armed > forces. I saw in the night those barbarous acts under the direction of > our commander-in-chief. I considered the responsibility of the White > House for such grotesque acts because I remember that a commander is > responsible for the actions of his troops. Far from being a singular > act of violence and humiliation, I see nothing but a program of > systematic torture and abuse spread throughout the string of prisons > around the globe, manned by our boys and girls in uniform.

Like most Arab men, you whine and are afraid to free yourselves in battle.  Try this http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040312-074010-1766r – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have also seen our American Government take control over the lives > and destinies of hapless Iraqis and Afghans who were born with the > same God-given rights to freedom of speech, association and > self-governance. Our Government boastfully screams from her beastly > lungs that we must stop Terror at all costs, and in so doing terrorize > others in the process. This is just another state program based on an > insidious state answer, costing us our wealth and freedom. > More>> > http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/arias/arias5.html

Response:

Abu Ghraib of Our Dreams by Abe Arias I dreamt of Abu Ghraib and the house of horrors committed by our armed forces. I saw in the night those barbarous acts under the direction of our commander-in-chief. I considered the responsibility of the White House for such grotesque acts because I remember that a commander is responsible for the actions of his troops. Far from being a singular act of violence and humiliation, I see nothing but a program of systematic torture and abuse spread throughout the string of prisons around the globe, manned by our boys and girls in uniform. I have also seen our American Government take control over the lives and destinies of hapless Iraqis and Afghans who were born with the same God-given rights to freedom of speech, association and self-governance. Our Government boastfully screams from her beastly lungs that we must stop Terror at all costs, and in so doing terrorize others in the process. This is just another state program based on an insidious state answer, costing us our wealth and freedom. More>> http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/arias/arias5.html

Response:

Question:

>  My kid is heading overseas for a year and is leaving her ‘98 Explorer in our >garage. How often should be take out and run it around and how long? Any other >tips for down time?

Car benifit most from two conditions, driving for long perods of time, ie highway miles, or sitting quietly covered. Get a cover for it(just incase you want your garage space back), change the oil, pu tin some stabile-fuel, and disconnect the battery. The car will be very happy to left alone till she she is needed again. Starting and stoping it only causes wear, and if it’s not good driving, you will cause impurities to build in the oil eating away the engine.  The battery disconnnected should reduce speed of corrosion. Another tip, if the car is under loan in no way stop coverage.  Your loan company might see that as fault, repo the car, or ‘buy’ coverage for you and charge you a higher price.  Talk with your insurance company, explain what you are doing, and they should have a special coverage that keeps the bank happy and your wallet happy. Ok, now what I would do…… sell the truck.  Bank the money. hth, tom            http://www.CarFleaMarket.com   Bringing back low-cost online car ads to the web!

Response:

>Ok, now what I would do…… sell the truck.  Bank the money.

     We suggested that, but she is in her 20s, this is her first car, she likes it, it is old enough she doesn’t think she can get enough money for it to buy something as good or better in a year, etc. etc. Thanks for the reply. —      "All of us learn to write in the second grade.       Most of us go on to greater things."         Bobby Knight.

Response:

I drive my old cars once a month for about 1/2 hour.  That advice was given to my be an old car collector, almost fifty years ago. I own a ‘41, 64, 71, 72, 83 and they all start and continue to run fine following his advice. mike hunt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >   My kid is heading overseas for a year and is leaving her ‘98 Explorer in our > garage. How often should be take out and run it around and how long? Any other > tips for down time? > — >      "All of us learn to write in the second grade. >       Most of us go on to greater things." >         Bobby Knight.

Response:

  My kid is heading overseas for a year and is leaving her ‘98 Explorer in our garage. How often should be take out and run it around and how long? Any other tips for down time? —      "All of us learn to write in the second grade.       Most of us go on to greater things."         Bobby Knight.

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Question:

Stern belongs on radio just as much as Rush BY ROGER EBERT Chicago Sun-Times, April 16, 2004 http://www.suntimes.com/output/otherviews/cst-edt-ebert16.html Like millions of Americans, I listen to Howard Stern on the radio in the mornings. I think he is smart, quick and funny. Sometimes he is ”offensive,” but to be quite frank, I am not ”offended,” because what he says falls within the realm of words and subjects that, as an adult, I have long been familiar with even without the tutelage of Stern. Unlike millions of Americans, I do not listen to Rush Limbaugh on the radio. One reason for that is that I am usually at the movies when he’s on the air — an alternative I urge on his listeners. Limbaugh does offend me when I monitor him, because he has cheapened political discourse in this country with his canned slogans and cheap shots. Once you call a feminist a ”feminazi,” what else is there to say about feminism? Of course you may disagree with me and prefer Limbaugh. I may disagree with you and prefer Stern. That is our right as Americans. What offends me is that the right wing, secure in its own right to offend, now wants to punish Stern to the point where he may be forced off the air. The big difference, of course, is that Stern’s offenses usually have to do with sex and language, while Limbaugh’s have to do with politics. Stern offends the puritan right, which doesn’t seem to respect the American tradition of freedom of expression. You don’t have to listen to Stern. Exercising the same freedom, I am Limbaugh-free. And please don’t tell me that Stern must be fined and driven off the radio because he uses the ”public airwaves.” If they are public, then his listeners are the public, and we want to listen to him on our airwaves. The public airwaves cannot be held hostage to a small segment that wants to decide what the rest of us can hear — especially now that President Bush supports consolidating more and more media outlets into a few rich hands. But what if a child should tune in? Call me old-fashioned, but I believe it is the responsibility of parents to control their children’s media input. The entire nation cannot be held hostage so that everything on the radio is suitable for 9-year-olds. Nor do I know of any children who want to listen to Stern, anyway; they prefer music. It is a belief of mine about the movies, that what makes them good or bad isn’t what they’re about, but how they’re about them. The point is not the subject but the form and purpose of its expression. A listener to Stern will find that he expresses humanistic values, that he opposes hypocrisy, that he talks honestly about what a great many Americans do indeed think and say and do. A Limbaugh listener, on the other hand, might not have guessed from campaigns to throw the book at drug addicts that he was addicted to drugs and required an employee to buy them on the street. But listen carefully. I support Limbaugh’s right to be on the radio. I feel it is fully equal to Stern’s. I find it strange that so many Americans describe themselves as patriotic when their values are anti-democratic and totalitarian. We are all familiar with Voltaire’s great cry: ”I may disagree with what you say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it.” Ideas like his helped form the emerging American republic. Today, the Federal Communications Commission operates under an alternative slogan: "Since a minority that is very important to this administration disagrees with what you say, shut up."        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

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> BY ROGER EBERT > Chicago Sun-Times, April 16, 2004 > http://www.suntimes.com/output/otherviews/cst-edt-ebert16.html

What he said…

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>Stern belongs on radio just as much as Rush

I guess that means that Stern doesn’t belong on radio.

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>>Stern belongs on radio just as much as Rush >I guess that means that Stern doesn’t belong on radio.

Well, going by his own criteria, Limbaugh belongs in prison — but Ebert wisely steers clear of that issue.        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

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>Stern belongs on radio just as much as Rush > I guess that means that Stern doesn’t belong on radio.

Ha ha ha I don’t listen to either one, but then again I rarely listen to the radio. If only ALL the listeners who hate that divisive draft-dodging drug-addict, Rash Limpdick would simply stop listening to the fascist fuck, he’d have a big drop in his ratings and end up being thrown off the air. >I find it strange that so many >Americans describe themselves as patriotic when their values are >anti-democratic and totalitarian.

That IS strange and it perfectly describes the ultra right flag wavers. Kabong!~!~!~! "Although tyranny, because it needs no consent, may successfully rule over foreign peoples, it can stay in power only if it destroys first of all the national institutions of its own people." ~Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

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> BY ROGER EBERT > Chicago Sun-Times, April 16, 2004 > http://www.suntimes.com/output/otherviews/cst-edt-ebert16.html > What he said…

What I said… Roger, stick to your area of expertise: popcorn, bon-bon’s, and verbose pontifications about boring foreign films that nobody but film critics go to… who cares what you think about anything else.

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I had reported almost having a battery fire a while back when one set of batteries shorted out and tried to consume the rest.  Those were pulled out of service and all seemed well.  I had to remove another set last night as performance had dropped rapidly and when checking water levels found that the plates were almost exposed in them.  The others were fine.  Again, hot to the touch and boiling without much input from the panels.  After removal performance shot up! They are 9 years old and all will be replace next week. Just a lesson to keep your eye on things especially when they are getting near end of life. Kirk "Moe, Larry, the cheese!", Curly www.sandpoint.net/captkirk www.stormyacres.com

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>I had reported almost having a battery fire a while back when one set >of batteries shorted out and tried to consume the rest.

I had one cell in a series string of two golf cart batteries fail: http://compusmiths.com/~w_smith/DailyBatteryVoltage.htm but the voltage, when it dropped, took almost 11 hours to drop from 12.5 to 10.5 volts, and even the ‘quick’ drop at http://compusmiths.com/~w_smith/CellShortCloseup.htm took 45 minutes (though Excel doesn’t seem to want to show the chart that way…). Maybe having cells in parallel allows more current to dump into a short, or maybe I had a different failure mode… — William Smith ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

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> I had one cell in a series string of two golf cart batteries fail: > http://compusmiths.com/~w_smith/DailyBatteryVoltage.htm but the > voltage, when it dropped, took almost 11 hours to drop from 12.5 to > 10.5 volts, and even the ‘quick’ drop at > http://compusmiths.com/~w_smith/CellShortCloseup.htm took 45 minutes > (though Excel doesn’t seem to want to show the chart that way…). > Maybe having cells in parallel allows more current to dump into a > short, or maybe I had a different failure mode…

Failure mode of a 12v battery system. I will give an idea of the events that would accrue in the failure of a series 12V (6 cells) system, And a series parallel 12V system consisting of 10 batteries (of 6 cells each) in parallel.. Series system. Stage one. One cell shorts, The total energy capacity of that cell will be turned to heat in that cell. Other cells will not be affected, besides moderate heating of adjacent cells for a short period of time. Total battery voltage under load is 8.3V to 10V When the charger brings it up to 13V float voltage, You will be giving the working cells a good EQ charge. Operator may not notice, but may think the system is running low all the time. Automatic low state of charge cut outs may shut down the system at night. Most systems that don’t use low state of charge protection will operate close to normal. Constant EQ charge levels may reduce life of working cells, and promote shorting of cells. Stage two. Second cell shorts. Any automatic low state of charge cut outs would render the system unusable at night. The remaining cells would receive a heavy EQ charge each day the sun shines. On systems that don’t use a low SOC cutout, only voltage variance tolerant electronic equipment will remain functioning, Incandescent lights will be noticeably dimmer. The charging equipment will work hard to get it up to 13V, if possible. The battery size is considerable compared to available charging current, so there is not enough charge current to promote thermal runaway. Life of remaining cells will be short from the heavy charging during the day. Stage three. Half of the cells are shorted. Charging system will not be able to bring voltage to regulation levels. Only the most tolerant electronic equipment will work at night. Incandescent will be dim. If there is an operator present, he should have found the problem by then. Most smart charging systems will know there is a problem and go into an error state. Stage four. Two cells left. If the site has any contact with the outside world, they should know there is a problem. Remote radio sites will be obvious from the system not working. Stage five. One cell working. Only small things like 12V clocks that can work down to 2V or so, will remain working. Stage six. Complete short. Panels will be dumping into a short, nothing works. For a series parallel system. Stage one. One cell on a battery in the system shorts. The problem battery will be in a quasi float charge in comparison to the rest of the system. During the day, it will get a good EQ charge. During the night, it will deliver no useable capacity. It will be a leach on the system. Only the most picky and finicky operator will notice. He will have to take a SG check on the shorted cell to know there is a problem. Most people with sealed batteries will be completely un aware of any fault condition. They will just think that the battery bank it getting old, and loosing capacity. Some may find out by pulling strings and doing voltage checks during normal maintenance. Some may find out by the problem battery gassing abnormally during EQ charges on the system. Some may find out by doing a simple "temperature by hand", check after an EQ charge. Some may notice by the abnormal water consumption of the problem battery. Constant overcharging will promote shorting in the other cells of the affected aging battery. Stage two. The second cell shorts in the problem battery. The battery will become a moderate load on the system. If it is a system of 10 or more batteries, and the dally system usage is high, many operators will not notice. The battery will be noticeably hotter than the rest of the units all the time. The battery will probably not go into thermal runaway unless the ambient temp is high. Gassing will be noticeable during most of the normal system cycle. Thermal runaway may be triggered by an EQ charge. Life of the existing cells will be short. If it stays in that condition, and no more cells short, the battery will safely boil dry. Shorting of other cells is highly possible by the sediments being stirred up in the battery by charging. Stage three. Half the cells are shorted. You have just started down the one way track to Chernobyl. Power consumption off the rest of the battery bank, will be large Thermal runaway is guarantied. Battery case may soften from the heat generated. Boiling will obvious. Remaining cells will either boil dry, or short, or boil dry and short, in quick order. Most interbank fuses will blow at this time. Stage four, Two cells left. Any Interbank fuse or fuseable links will melt at this time. You will have gas venting out the top of the battery like a steam pot. Case of the battery will start melting which will cause the last two cells to short. The already shorted cells will boil any remaining fluid off, and the hot plates will start melting through the plastic case. Stage five. One cell left, and it won’t last long. Stage six. A complete short. If there is any sizable charge left in the rest of the bank. Plastic of the problem battery will probably ignite from the molten lead. The insulation on the battery interconnects will melt off, and any remaining insulation will ignite. Cables will arc cut through any metal enclosure like a blow torch through hot butter. Any plastic conduit will burst into flame on contact with red hot conductors. Any wood will ignite on contact with conductors. Flames will encompass most of the area until, all consumable materials inside or outside  a solid metal enclosure is consumed, or the enclosure burns down (the owners house), or the fire department puts out the fire.

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Presuming that your senario is correct, or nearly correct, what design provisions could be made to avoid the most catastrophic failure mode in an unattended system? You seem to suggest that observation and immediate repair is necessary for preventing a cascading mode of failure. But, surely there must be some automatic means to prevent a bank from digressing into a catrosrophic house fire. My system will run attended for 5 months of the year. While I’m willing to assume some risk of a bank self distructing, I would invest in automatic systems to prevent my house from burning down. What comes to mind is using a fireproof battery enclosure for the bank. Maybe concrete block, with a fire rated ceiling. That expence would seem to be a good investment if it could prevent a bank fire from spreading to the rest of the structure. What is the purpose of the interbank fusing if not to prevent a fire? Where are fuses required in series parallel arrangement? How do you calculate their rating? Would there be any safety advantage to reducing the number of charging panels to a minimum just to keep the batteries from freezing over the winter? Over the winter months, my loads are almost nil, so the PV would be used just to keep the bank from self discharging and eventually freezing. -50f is not uncommon over the winter. Design for safety ideas?

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Soooo, in your opinion what’s the odds of a ‘meltdown’ occurring ?  Just starting to build up a ‘power set-up’ (inverter, batts (all at once soon $$) charger).  Should I also figure in an outdoor enclosure for the batts?  Live in Canada so winter would sap avail power, but burning down the house would make the emergency power set-up a moot point….Rob. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I had reported almost having a battery fire a while back when one set >of batteries shorted out and tried to consume the rest. > I had one cell in a series string of two golf cart batteries fail: > http://compusmiths.com/~w_smith/DailyBatteryVoltage.htm but the > voltage, when it dropped, took almost 11 hours to drop from 12.5 to > 10.5 volts, and even the ‘quick’ drop at > http://compusmiths.com/~w_smith/CellShortCloseup.htm took 45 minutes > (though Excel doesn’t seem to want to show the chart that way…). > Maybe having cells in parallel allows more current to dump into a > short, or maybe I had a different failure mode… > — > William Smith > ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I had one cell in a series string of two golf cart batteries fail: > http://compusmiths.com/~w_smith/DailyBatteryVoltage.htm but the > voltage, when it dropped, took almost 11 hours to drop from 12.5 to > 10.5 volts, and even the ‘quick’ drop at > http://compusmiths.com/~w_smith/CellShortCloseup.htm took 45 minutes > (though Excel doesn’t seem to want to show the chart that way…). > Maybe having cells in parallel allows more current to dump into a > short, or maybe I had a different failure mode… >Failure mode of a 12v battery system. >I will give an idea of the events that would >accrue in the failure of a series 12V (6 cells) system, >And a series parallel 12V system consisting of >10 batteries (of 6 cells each) in parallel.. >Series system. >Stage one. >One cell shorts, >The total energy capacity of that cell will be turned to heat in that cell. >Other cells will not be affected, besides moderate heating of adjacent cells >for a short period of time. >Total battery voltage under load is 8.3V to 10V >When the charger brings it up to 13V float voltage, >You will be giving the working cells a good EQ charge. >Operator may not notice, but may think the system is running low all the >time. >Automatic low state of charge cut outs may shut down the system at night. >Most systems that don’t use low state of charge protection will operate >close to normal. >Constant EQ charge levels may reduce life of working cells, >and promote shorting of cells.

This is a very good description of what I saw in my system. Kirk "Moe, Larry, the cheese!", Curly www.sandpoint.net/captkirk www.stormyacres.com

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>Soooo, in your opinion what’s the odds of a ‘meltdown’ occurring ?

Beats me, somewhere between 2 (my experience) and 9(?) years (Kirk’s) would certainly cover all the bases, even if it’s not a very useful answer.  I think I’d build a setup that could withstand a battery fire (or leak, or explosion, or other catastrophic failure) just to be safe.  [What that means in each case is probably different, but a fireproof battery box {vented to the} outside shouldn't be rocket science.] I’d also rather have one set of large cells in series than having a number of parallel batteries, to reduce the fault current in the event of a short. — William Smith ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

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>For a series parallel system. >Stage one. >One cell on a battery in the system shorts. >The problem battery will be in a quasi float charge in comparison to the >rest of the system. >During the day, it will get a good EQ charge. >During the night, it will deliver no useable capacity. >It will be a leach on the system.

It’s worse than that, isn’t it?  The battery with the shorted cell will discharge the parallel battery, overheating the shorted one and ruining the parallel one, yes? — William Smith ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

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> My system will run attended for 5 months of the year. While I’m willing to > assume some risk of a bank self distructing, I would invest in automatic > systems to prevent my house from burning down. > What comes to mind is using a fireproof battery enclosure for the bank. > Maybe concrete block, with a fire rated ceiling. That expence would seem to > be a good investment if it could prevent a bank fire from spreading to the > rest of the structure.

Those are good ideas. You want something that is non conductive, and won’t burn. Concrete is a good idea. Something like A concrete pit, with a fiberglass, or asbestos cover And nothing flammable around the pit, that a flying spark could ignite. The batteries will burn themselves out without the fire spreading. > What is the purpose of the interbank fusing if not to prevent a fire?

That is what they are there for. I was just making a note of where they would most likely blow. When they blow, the digression of the condition stops. > Where are fuses required in series parallel arrangement? > How do you calculate their rating?

It would depend upon the amount of reliability you want out of the system. > Would there be any safety advantage to reducing the number of charging > panels to a minimum just to keep the batteries from freezing over the > winter? Over the winter months, my loads are almost nil, so the PV would be > used just to keep the bank from self discharging and eventually > freezing. -50f is not uncommon over the winter. > Design for safety ideas?

Design the system to fail in a safe mode. Put fuseable links, or fuses in all parallel setups. Keep the batteries out of the main house when possible. If they are in the house, make sure that they won’t destroy something if they do melt down. The safety measures will depend upon the installation. Design for the worst case scenario, hope for the best.

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>>Soooo, in your opinion what’s the odds of a ‘meltdown’ occurring ? >Beats me, somewhere between 2 (my experience) and 9(?) years (Kirk’s) >would certainly cover all the bases, even if it’s not a very useful >answer.  I think I’d build a setup that could withstand a battery fire >(or leak, or explosion, or other catastrophic failure) just to be >safe.  [What that means in each case is probably different, but a >fireproof battery box {vented to the} outside shouldn't be rocket >science.] >I’d also rather have one set of large cells in series than having a >number of parallel batteries, to reduce the fault current in the event >of a short.

For me, unfortunately, I must keep the batteries in the house in the utility room. ( N. Idaho winter is detrimental to battery capacity.) Wooden house, wooden floor, wooden battery box.  I am going to look into fusing the parallel hookups now but since I am obsessive concerning safety I will have to rely on eyeball monitoring for the near future.  I DO have the batteries in plastic tubs to catch any acid but it won’t do much good for hot lead. The box is vented to the outside with forced ventilation when the batteries get to 14.5 V.  This is handled using the programmable relays in my SW2512. Realistically I don’t think the chances for me of a true meltdown are a great concern.  But then I am here year round.  If it was a vacation cabin things might be different. Kirk "Moe, Larry, the cheese!", Curly www.sandpoint.net/captkirk www.stormyacres.com

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Aside from fusing parallel batteries, one thing a person could do, particularly if the battery bank is inside a house, would be to provide a tank (say a plastic barrel) filled with baking soda solution, and mount this tank several feet above the battery bank. Run a line from this tank to a fire sprinkler head mounted over the batteries. If something really nasty ahppens, and it gets hot in there, the sprinkler head will function and drizzle the area with soda solution, which would tend to quench a fire,a nd also neutralize any spilled acid. Just a thought, and it would be pretty cheap insurance. Gordon Richmond

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> Aside from fusing parallel batteries, one thing a person could do, > particularly if the battery bank is inside a house, would be to > provide a tank (say a plastic barrel) filled with baking soda > solution, and mount this tank several feet above the battery bank. Run > a line from this tank to a fire sprinkler head mounted over the > batteries. If something really nasty ahppens, and it gets hot in > there, the sprinkler head will function and drizzle the area with soda > solution, which would tend to quench a fire,a nd also neutralize any > spilled acid.

Good idea but I don’t think it would work.  I don’t think the baking soda would "drizzle" out, you’d have to have a pressurized system.  If you are really worried and need something like this I’d look for a restaurant supply house and check out the fire ex designed for deep fat fryers.  IIRC, they use baking soda, nontoxic, and having seen one of them in action I can tell you it would put out more than enough soda to handle quite a few batteries.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Presuming that your senario is correct, or nearly correct, what design > provisions could be made to avoid the most catastrophic failure mode in an > unattended system? > You seem to suggest that observation and immediate repair is necessary for > preventing a cascading mode of failure. But, surely there must be some > automatic means to prevent a bank from digressing into a catrosrophic house > fire. > My system will run attended for 5 months of the year. While I’m willing to > assume some risk of a bank self distructing, I would invest in automatic > systems to prevent my house from burning down. > What comes to mind is using a fireproof battery enclosure for the bank. > Maybe concrete block, with a fire rated ceiling. That expence would seem to > be a good investment if it could prevent a bank fire from spreading to the > rest of the structure.

Sounds smart. Passive venting is also smart, to prevent gas buildup. Fusing each battery makes good sense. Lighting & attendant switching for this enclosure should be rated for explosive conditions, also.  (enclosed bulbs, switches, etc). > What is the purpose of the interbank fusing if not to prevent a fire?

Fire prevention is one goal.  Prevention of damage to other components is the other reason. > Where are fuses required in series parallel arrangement?

_I_ would break each positive connection to the nest point with a big ole fuse. > How do you calculate their rating?

Good question..  Here’s where my ignorance shows.  Somebody help me here please. My guess: calculate biggest current load, add what …..? ….40%? and that’s the size. > Would there be any safety advantage to reducing the number of charging > panels to a minimum just to keep the batteries from freezing over the > winter? Over the winter months, my loads are almost nil, so the PV would be > used just to keep the bank from self discharging and eventually > freezing. -50f is not uncommon over the winter.

Add a heater plate under the battery bank. Thermo switch to kick it on when it’s COLD. This will give some exercise to the batteries, too. > Design for safety ideas?

That’s it for now.  All opinions supplied out of ignorance and "common sense" Mark (If I’m wrong, an expert can correct me) Dunning

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>> Would there be any safety advantage to reducing the number of charging > panels to a minimum just to keep the batteries from freezing over the > winter? Over the winter months, my loads are almost nil, so the PV would > be used just to keep the bank from self discharging and eventually > freezing. -50f is not uncommon over the winter.

That’s good, for battery lifetime. Cold batteries last longer, and their self-discharge rate is lower. But they have less available capacity. This capacity returns as they are warmed… >Add a heater plate under the battery bank. >Thermo switch to kick it on when it’s COLD.

I’d do this only as needed to discharge them. A watt-hour of heat energy can "release" more than a watt-hour of capacity. Nick

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> Aside from fusing parallel batteries, one thing a person could do, > particularly if the battery bank is inside a house, would be to > provide a tank (say a plastic barrel) filled with baking soda > solution, and mount this tank several feet above the battery bank. Run > a line from this tank to a fire sprinkler head mounted over the > batteries. If something really nasty ahppens, and it gets hot in > there, the sprinkler head will function and drizzle the area with soda > solution, which would tend to quench a fire,a nd also neutralize any > spilled acid. > Good idea but I don’t think it would work.  I don’t think the baking soda > would "drizzle" out, you’d have to have a pressurized system.

I think he was thinking of baking soda dissolved in a water solution, not dry powder.  Although I *have* seen dry powder fire systems, they use CO2 or N2 to blow the powder out.  Perhaps a bit too complicated for this.  But a drum suspended up high with a water-soda solution might be practical. Of course, putting water of any kind on an electrical fire is a bad idea. > If you are > really worried and need something like this I’d look for a restaurant supply > house and check out the fire ex designed for deep fat fryers.  IIRC, they > use baking soda, nontoxic, and having seen one of them in action I can tell > you it would put out more than enough soda to handle quite a few

batteries. Yep.  That’s the kind I’ve seen.  A pressurization canister (CO2 I think) helps to put out the fire as well.  But what a *mess* to clean up afterwards. daestrom

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> Yep.  That’s the kind I’ve seen.  A pressurization canister (CO2 I think) > helps to put out the fire as well.  But what a *mess* to clean up > afterwards.

Keep it in perspective – a few hours or days cleaning up a mess of powder goes a _lot_ faster than cleaning up the charred remains of the building. The last restaurant fire in this town took the restaurant (business) out for over a year, and they moved up the street when they reopened – the building has taken over 3 years to get fixed (the landlord let it sit boarded up for quite a while, I assume due to the insurance dawdling/ligitgating over the settlement). Makes a powdery mess look quite attractive. — Cats, Coffee, Chocolate…vices to live by

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> > How do you calculate their rating? > Good question..  Here’s where my ignorance shows.  Somebody help me here > please. > My guess: calculate biggest current load, add what …..? ….40%? and > that’s the size.

Sizing a fuse for this still has me scratching my head. For house wiring, you select a fuse based on the ampacity of the wire thet the fuse is intended to protect. But, used in between series runs of a series-parallel bank, you have batteries in the circuit that you want to protect. It is not clear to me that the rating has much to do with the banks load, because with a failure such as shorted battery plates, the shorted plates become the load. A DC disconnect fuse or breaker is required by NEC to protect the load. So, I’m speculating that the rating of an interbank fuse would have more to do with the ampacity rating of the series string of batteries, or perhaps a single battery in that string. I’d also guess that it has something to do with the implicit charge rate numbers associated with lead acid batteries. I’d love to see how to do the calculation based on a simple example. I currently have four 6 volt 220 amp-hour golf cart batteries in a bank wired series-parallel. It seems to me that calcuating the correct size is crtical. Too small and it’s going to constantly be blowing expensive DC fuses. Too large and it’s usless.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > How do you calculate their rating? > Good question..  Here’s where my ignorance shows.  Somebody help me here > please. > My guess: calculate biggest current load, add what …..? ….40%? and > that’s the size. >Sizing a fuse for this still has me scratching my head. For house wiring, >you select a fuse based on the ampacity of the wire thet the fuse is >intended to protect. But, used in between series runs of a series-parallel >bank, you have batteries in the circuit that you want to protect. >It is not clear to me that the rating has much to do with the banks load, >because with a failure such as shorted battery plates, the shorted plates >become the load. A DC disconnect fuse or breaker is required by NEC to >protect the load. >So, I’m speculating that the rating of an interbank fuse would have more to >do with the ampacity rating of the series string of batteries, or perhaps a >single battery in that string. I’d also guess that it has something to do >with the implicit charge rate numbers associated with lead acid batteries. >I’d love to see how to do the calculation based on a simple example. I >currently have four 6 volt 220 amp-hour golf cart batteries in a bank wired >series-parallel. >It seems to me that calcuating the correct size is crtical. Too small and >it’s going to constantly be blowing expensive DC fuses. Too large and it’s >usless.

One thing I’m confused about, relative to the sizing of the fuses, is the total draw from the bank.  I have my positive lead at one end of bank and the negative at the other.  This puts the total load eventually going through 1 fuse.  Or am I missing something? Irregardless of the configuration it seems to me that each fuse would be seeing a different current load. Kirk "Moe, Larry, the cheese!", Curly www.sandpoint.net/captkirk www.stormyacres.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > How do you calculate their rating? >> Good question..  Here’s where my ignorance shows.  Somebody help me here >> please. >> My guess: calculate biggest current load, add what …..? ….40%? and >> that’s the size. >Sizing a fuse for this still has me scratching my head. For house wiring, >you select a fuse based on the ampacity of the wire thet the fuse is >intended to protect. But, used in between series runs of a series-parallel >bank, you have batteries in the circuit that you want to protect. >It is not clear to me that the rating has much to do with the banks load, >because with a failure such as shorted battery plates, the shorted plates >become the load. A DC disconnect fuse or breaker is required by NEC to >protect the load. >So, I’m speculating that the rating of an interbank fuse would have more to >do with the ampacity rating of the series string of batteries, or perhaps a >single battery in that string. I’d also guess that it has something to do >with the implicit charge rate numbers associated with lead acid batteries. >I’d love to see how to do the calculation based on a simple example. I >currently have four 6 volt 220 amp-hour golf cart batteries in a bank wired >series-parallel. >It seems to me that calcuating the correct size is crtical. Too small and >it’s going to constantly be blowing expensive DC fuses. Too large and it’s >usless. > One thing I’m confused about, relative to the sizing of the fuses, is > the total draw from the bank.  I have my positive lead at one end of > bank and the negative at the other.  This puts the total load > eventually going through 1 fuse.  Or am I missing something? > Irregardless of the configuration it seems to me that each fuse would > be seeing a different current load.

Lets work from a simple example.. Two 6v batteries in series, paralleled with another two in series. Hope this text drawing is ledgable.. (if not try fixed font) |                                                         | |                                                         | 6v   (battery A)                                  6v  (battery C) 220 amp hr                                        220 amp hr battery                                               battery |                                                         | |                                                         | (-)                                                    (-) |     series string A                               |  series string B |                                                         | LOAD (12v) (+)                                                  (+) |                                                         | |                                                         | 6v  (battery B)                                    6v (battery D) 220 amp hr                                        220 amp hr battery                                               battery |                                                         | |                                                         | It seems to me that fuse 1 would only need to handle 1/2 the current supplied to the load. The current from battery D and C do not flow through Fuse 1. If you added another string (and fuse), then it would need to handle 2/3 of the current (I’m still speculating) If battery A shorts a two plates, it then produces 10V. Series String B will still be at 12v and try and backdrive string a with 2v. But what will the current be? It would seem to be dependent upon the internal resistance of string A. I don’t know how you determine the internal resistance of a battery. I suspect there is some rule of thumb based on chemistry. I’ve never seen it mentioned in the limited specs provided by manufacturers, so maybe it is implicit. Bug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Kirk > "Moe, Larry, the cheese!", Curly > www.sandpoint.net/captkirk > www.stormyacres.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> > How do you calculate their rating? > >> Good question..  Here’s where my ignorance shows.  Somebody help me >here > >> please. > >> My guess: calculate biggest current load, add what …..? ….40%? and > >> that’s the size. > >Sizing a fuse for this still has me scratching my head. For house wiring, > >you select a fuse based on the ampacity of the wire thet the fuse is > >intended to protect. But, used in between series runs of a >series-parallel > >bank, you have batteries in the circuit that you want to protect. > >It is not clear to me that the rating has much to do with the banks load, > >because with a failure such as shorted battery plates, the shorted plates > >become the load. A DC disconnect fuse or breaker is required by NEC to > >protect the load. > >So, I’m speculating that the rating of an interbank fuse would have more >to > >do with the ampacity rating of the series string of batteries, or perhaps >a > >single battery in that string. I’d also guess that it has something to do > >with the implicit charge rate numbers associated with lead acid >batteries. > >I’d love to see how to do the calculation based on a simple example. I > >currently have four 6 volt 220 amp-hour golf cart batteries in a bank >wired > >series-parallel. > >It seems to me that calcuating the correct size is crtical. Too small and > >it’s going to constantly be blowing expensive DC fuses. Too large and >it’s > >usless. > One thing I’m confused about, relative to the sizing of the fuses, is > the total draw from the bank.  I have my positive lead at one end of > bank and the negative at the other.  This puts the total load > eventually going through 1 fuse.  Or am I missing something? > Irregardless of the configuration it seems to me that each fuse would > be seeing a different current load. >Lets work from a simple example.. Two 6v batteries in series, paralleled >with another >two in series. Hope this text drawing is ledgable.. (if not try fixed font) >|                                                         | >|                                                         | >6v   (battery A)                                  6v  (battery C) >220 amp hr                                        220 amp hr >battery                                               battery >|                                                         | >|                                                         | >(-)                                                    (-) >|     series string A                               |  series string B >|                                                         | >LOAD (12v) >(+)                                                  (+) >|                                                         | >|                                                         | >6v  (battery B)                                    6v (battery D) >220 amp hr                                        220 amp hr >battery                                               battery >|                                                         | >|                                                         | >It seems to me that fuse 1 would only need to handle 1/2 the current >supplied to the load. The current from battery D and C do not flow through >Fuse 1. If you added another string (and fuse), then it would need to handle >2/3 of the current (I’m still speculating) >If battery A shorts a two plates, it then produces 10V. Series String B will >still be at 12v >and try and backdrive string a with 2v. But what will the current be? It >would seem >to be dependent upon the internal resistance of string A. I don’t know how >you determine >the internal resistance of a battery. I suspect there is some rule of thumb >based on >chemistry. I’ve never seen it mentioned in the limited specs provided by >manufacturers, so >maybe it is implicit. >Bug

I was thinking a bit differently but I see the point here.  Fusing between the series pairs would drop those batteries out if the fuse popped.  Is this correct?  If so this is the simplest method.  But again what value fuse to use?  But if the battery, in the series pair, before the fuse was to short will the fuse still pop?  Isn’t the current being converted to heat in that battery instead of passing through the fuse?  Been too long since I’ve had to use any electronics theory. My thought was fusing the parallel connections.  In this case the fuses would see different current loads but would still leave the series pair vulnerable. I’m running 8 L16’s in series parallel so the current through the fuse closet to the load connection could be quite a lot.  I’ve already got a 400 amp T fuse for the total load but that doesn’t protect the batteries in a situation like mine. Kirk "Moe, Larry, the cheese!", Curly www.sandpoint.net/captkirk www.stormyacres.com

Response:

> It seems to me that fuse 1 would only need to handle 1/2 the current > supplied to the load. The current from battery D and C do not flow through > Fuse 1. If you added another string (and fuse), then it would need to handle > 2/3 of the current (I’m still speculating)

Depends on how you connect it. The way I’d connect it, each would only need to carry 1/3 of the 3-parallel battery bank. A smaller diagram:        +out +        +       + B1      B2       B3 –        -       –         -out But that would allow B2 to get fried by B1 and B3 acting together (ie, B1 or B 3 shorting would be limited to F amps, but B2 shorting could get 2F amps), so the following would be better, and scales to as many parallel strings as you have:        +out F        F       F +        +       + B1      B2       B3 –        -       –         -out In actual point of fact, some sort of thermal cutout which sensed battery temprature might be a good plan, as well as the current limiting of the fuses, but it can get quite complicated/expensive and could also be inefficient. Temperature monitoring of the batteries and high temperature alarms are probably well worthwhile, especially given cheap temperature sensing devices. It argues in favor of fewer parallel strings of larger batteries. — Cats, Coffee, Chocolate…vices to live by

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >> > How do you calculate their rating? >> >> Good question..  Here’s where my ignorance shows.  Somebody help me >here >> >> please. >> >> My guess: calculate biggest current load, add what …..? ….40%? and >> >> that’s the size. >> >Sizing a fuse for this still has me scratching my head. For house wiring, >> >you select a fuse based on the ampacity of the wire thet the fuse is >> >intended to protect. But, used in between series runs of a >series-parallel >> >bank, you have batteries in the circuit that you want to protect. >> >It is not clear to me that the rating has much to do with the banks load, >> >because with a failure such as shorted battery plates, the shorted plates >> >become the load. A DC disconnect fuse or breaker is required by NEC to >> >protect the load. >> >So, I’m speculating that the rating of an interbank fuse would have more >to >> >do with the ampacity rating of the series string of batteries, or perhaps >a >> >single battery in that string. I’d also guess that it has something to do >> >with the implicit charge rate numbers associated with lead acid >batteries. >> >I’d love to see how to do the calculation based on a simple example. I >> >currently have four 6 volt 220 amp-hour golf cart batteries in a bank >wired >> >series-parallel. >> >It seems to me that calcuating the correct size is crtical. Too small and >> >it’s going to constantly be blowing expensive DC fuses. Too large and >it’s >> >usless. >> One thing I’m confused about, relative to the sizing of the fuses, is >> the total draw from the bank.  I have my positive lead at one end of >> bank and the negative at the other.  This puts the total load >> eventually going through 1 fuse.  Or am I missing something? >> Irregardless of the configuration it seems to me that each fuse would >> be seeing a different current load. >Lets work from a simple example.. Two 6v batteries in series, paralleled >with another >two in series. Hope this text drawing is ledgable.. (if not try fixed font) >|                                                         | >|                                                         | >6v   (battery A)                                  6v  (battery C) >220 amp hr                                        220 amp hr >battery                                               battery >|                                                         | >|                                                         | >(-)                                                    (-) >|     series string A                               |  series string B >|                                                         | LOAD (12v) >(+)                                                  (+) >|                                                         | >|                                                         | >6v  (battery B)                                    6v (battery D) >220 amp hr                                        220 amp hr >battery                                               battery >|                                                         | >|                                                         | >It seems to me that fuse 1 would only need to handle 1/2 the current >supplied to the load. The current from battery D and C do not flow through >Fuse 1. If you added another string (and fuse), then it would need to handle >2/3 of the current (I’m still speculating) >If battery A shorts a two plates, it then produces 10V. Series String B will >still be at 12v >and try and backdrive string a with 2v. But what will the current be? It >would seem >to be dependent upon the internal resistance of string A. I don’t know how >you determine >the internal resistance of a battery. I suspect there is some rule of thumb >based on >chemistry. I’ve never seen it mentioned in the limited specs provided by >manufacturers, so >maybe it is implicit. >Bug > I was thinking a bit differently but I see the point here.  Fusing > between the series pairs would drop those batteries out if the fuse > popped.  Is this correct?

Yes, if fuse 1 popped, String A would be disconnected from String B and the load. String B would still be supplying 12v to the load, same current, but at half storage capacity. Current flow would also stop in string A, even with a internal battery short in that string.  > If so this is the simplest method.  But > again what value fuse to use?  But if the battery, in the series pair, > before the fuse was to short will the fuse still pop?  Isn’t the > current being converted to heat in that battery instead of passing > through the fuse?  Been too long since I’ve had to use any electronics > theory.

There still has to be a complete circuit for current to flow in any series string.  The fuse is in series with that circuit, so it would see any increased current flow and pop as long as it was of the correct rating. > My thought was fusing the parallel connections.  In this case the > fuses would see different current loads but would still leave the > series pair vulnerable.

I thought that my diagram WAS fusing the parallel connection between series strings. Parallel goes from left to right, and series goes from bottom to top in my drawing. I can’t see how it matters whether it’s in a series of a parallel leg, but most discussion talks about putting it in the parallel leg, which I believe I have done in my drawing. > I’m running 8 L16’s in series parallel so the current through the fuse > closet to the load connection could be quite a lot.  I’ve already got > a 400 amp T fuse for the total load but that doesn’t protect the > batteries in a situation like mine.

That fuse would be to protect the wiring between the load and the battery and the battery bank as a whole. But, it does nothing to protect individual strings. I have to admit to being a bit rusty on theory myself. There has to be some trick in understanding this, and I think that is an understanding of internal battery resistance. Somebody out there has to have done this before. I’m hoping they will pop in and set us straight. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Kirk > "Moe, Larry, the cheese!", Curly > www.sandpoint.net/captkirk > www.stormyacres.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It seems to me that fuse 1 would only need to handle 1/2 the current > supplied to the load. The current from battery D and C do not flow through > Fuse 1. If you added another string (and fuse), then it would need to handle > 2/3 of the current (I’m still speculating) > Depends on how you connect it. The way I’d connect it, each would only > need to carry 1/3 of the 3-parallel battery bank. > A smaller diagram: >        +out > +        +       + > B1      B2       B3 > –        -       – >         -out > But that would allow B2 to get fried by B1 and B3 acting together (ie, > B1 or B 3 shorting would be limited to F amps, but B2 shorting could get > 2F amps), so the following would be better, and scales to as many > parallel strings as you have: >        +out > F        F       F > +        +       + > B1      B2       B3 > –        -       – >         -out

I think I grok that. You have more fuses, but they can be at a lower rating in the second diagram. If you go with dirgram 1, you need to increase the current rating of the fuse as you add additional series strings. Diagram 2 would also seem to simplfy the calculating the ampacity of the fuse. Since you are fusing each series string, you want to select a fuse to protect the weakest link in that series circuit, which would be a battery, a cell, or the smallest conductor in that string. It would not matter how many batteries were in series, because that only increases voltage and not current. So, I agree, diagram 2 simplifies the problem considerably. Now, all that is needed is some form of battery specification, internal resistance, or charge rate that allows you to determine how much input current it can take before it catches fire or otherwise endangers the rest of the bank. > In actual point of fact, some sort of thermal cutout which sensed > battery temprature might be a good plan, as well as the current limiting > of the fuses, but it can get quite complicated/expensive and could also > be inefficient. Temperature monitoring of the batteries and high > temperature alarms are probably well worthwhile, especially given cheap > temperature sensing devices. It argues in favor of fewer parallel > strings of larger batteries.

Trace SW series inverters (and others) have battery temperature sensors to modify battery charging. I wonder if they can be used to trigger a some form of safety device. I’d have to look to see if there is a overtemperature fault. If there is it could be used to remove the load of the inverter, or perhaps to trigger a fire supression system through one of the inverters relay outputs. I agree that it seems to complex. I don’t know if I buy the fact that it argues for larger batteries. All that larger batteres buys you is fewer interconnects. You loose some modulatity and the ability to swap out a less pricy single point of failure. Good discussion. I am learning a few things, and at least exercising the brain a bit to make this all a bit more fathomable. I really want to understand this before I go out and buy a whole bunch of pricy DC fuses and fuse blocks. The item that remains illusive is how to calculate the rating of each fuse. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Cats, Coffee, Chocolate…vices to live by

Response:

I have always considered his second diagram as the only logical way to do things. I go a bit on the side of reliability. If you have ten batteries in parallel, and you want to pull a maximum system load of 200 amps. You pick a size of fuse that will total to 400 amps. (ie) 40A each, and each carries 1/10 of the load. Maximum that can be pulled of the banks is 400A. That will stop things from melting down if the wires to the main inverter cutout/(over current protector) short. And the system will still operate nominally with half the batteries removed, for maintenance, by fault, or what ever. That allows you to pull maintenance on a string by just removing the fuse for that string, to isolate it from the system. If you have only two or three strings in parallel, you should probably go with 150% of the rated maximum load on the system. (ie)300A for a 200A system. 150A on each of the two strings. 100A on each of the three strings. And my opinion for batteries under 200AH is that the fuses that are widely available in stores that is rated at 10,000A ISC for about a $1.50 a piece, should be adequate. The maximum they have to handle is the current through one battery, in their intended protective mode. If the batteries are over 200AH, I would go with the bigger 20,000A ISC or larger fuses.

Response:

Seems to me that you could get a relatively inexpensive non-contact infrared digital thermometer (point & shoot), and aim it at each battery in teh system. Record the measured tempereatures during different cycling periods (charging, standby, discharge), and see if there is great variation over time. Probably takes longer to describt than to do the measurement… I think I have seen them for sale by Exeltek for under $75USD. Just a thought… SpiderG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > It seems to me that fuse 1 would only need to handle 1/2 the current > > supplied to the load. The current from battery D and C do not flow > through > > Fuse 1. If you added another string (and fuse), then it would need to > handle > > 2/3 of the current (I’m still speculating) > Depends on how you connect it. The way I’d connect it, each would only > need to carry 1/3 of the 3-parallel battery bank. > A smaller diagram: >        +out > +        +       + > B1      B2       B3 > –        -       – >         -out > But that would allow B2 to get fried by B1 and B3 acting together (ie, > B1 or B 3 shorting would be limited to F amps, but B2 shorting could get > 2F amps), so the following would be better, and scales to as many > parallel strings as you have: >        +out > F        F       F > +        +       + > B1      B2       B3 > –        -       – >         -out > I think I grok that. You have more fuses, but they can be at a lower rating > in the second diagram. If you go with dirgram 1, you need to increase the > current rating of the fuse as you add additional series strings. > Diagram 2 would also seem to simplfy the calculating the ampacity of the > fuse. Since you are fusing each series string, you want to select a fuse to > protect the weakest link in that series circuit, which would be a battery, a > cell, or the smallest conductor in that string. It would not matter how many > batteries were in series, because that only increases voltage and not > current. > So, I agree, diagram 2 simplifies the problem considerably. > Now, all that is needed is some form of battery specification, internal > resistance, or charge rate that allows you to determine how much input > current it can take before it catches fire > or otherwise endangers the rest of the bank. > In actual point of fact, some sort of thermal cutout which sensed > battery temprature might be a good plan, as well as the current limiting > of the fuses, but it can get quite complicated/expensive and could also > be inefficient. Temperature monitoring of the batteries and high > temperature alarms are probably well worthwhile, especially given cheap > temperature sensing devices. It argues in favor of fewer parallel > strings of larger batteries. > Trace SW series inverters (and others) have battery temperature sensors to > modify battery charging. I wonder if they can be used to trigger a some form > of safety device. I’d have to look to see if there is a overtemperature > fault. If there is it could be used to remove the load of the inverter, or > perhaps to trigger a fire supression system through one of the inverters > relay outputs. I agree that it seems to complex. > I don’t know if I buy the fact that it argues for larger batteries. All that > larger batteres buys you is fewer interconnects. You loose some modulatity > and the ability to swap out a less pricy single point of failure. > Good discussion. I am learning a few things, and at least exercising the > brain a bit to make this all a bit more fathomable. I really want to > understand this before I go out and buy a whole bunch of pricy DC fuses and > fuse blocks. > The item that remains illusive is how to calculate the rating of each fuse. > — > Cats, Coffee, Chocolate…vices to live by

Response:

Question:

I find breakfast is OK – essential in fact. A moderate lunch (I get dozy if I eat too much at midday, but that’s got nothing to do with CD!) is about right, and a very light tea with maybe a biscuit or something before bed. I cannot stand heavy meals in the evening. They sit like lead in my gut and I don’t sleep well.

Response:

> Are you working by any chance? Is it possible you are more in a rush or tense > when eating breakfast and lunch, and are more relaxed while eating dinner? Just > a thought. > Hi all… > CD since 87. The past 1-2 years for sure, I find that it is harder for me to > digest lunch versus dinner/supper. It is not related to the food itself, but > the time of day. It is hard to explain. > Anyone have similar experiences?

brad you didnt mention breakfast..is lunch the first meal of the day for you? it could be something to do with meds you had at night or early in the am.. or as paula pointed out…rushing or being tense while eating..heck..it could even be how you are seated…i do better at home at dinner cos i kind of lounge back on the sofa for dinner…and that helps… or maybe u are exercising or working physically after lunch and u dont have time to properly digest the food… or maybe thats your "bad" time of day(mine is 3-6)…lots of us have times of the day that simply arent good…maybe u can change the time you eat lunch? or if breakfast is an ok meal..eat a larger one and just snack at lunch.. annie

Response:

Hi all… CD since 87. The past 1-2 years for sure, I find that it is harder for me to digest lunch versus dinner/supper. It is not related to the food itself, but the time of day. It is hard to explain. Anyone have similar experiences?

Response:

>Anyone have similar experiences?

Yup!   I have a hard time with eating in the morning, and lunch.   Usually by 2 o’clock, my stomach has calmed down a bit.   Strange, isn’t it?

Response:

Just a hunch here….but do you take any meds in the morning and maybe like after supper ?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi all… > CD since 87. The past 1-2 years for sure, I find that it is harder for me to > digest lunch versus dinner/supper. It is not related to the food itself, but > the time of day. It is hard to explain. > Anyone have similar experiences?

Response:

Only Pentasa really and some supps.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just a hunch here….but do you take any meds in the morning and maybe like > after supper ? > Hi all… > CD since 87. The past 1-2 years for sure, I find that it is harder for me > to > digest lunch versus dinner/supper. It is not related to the food itself, > but > the time of day. It is hard to explain. > Anyone have similar experiences?

Response:

Are you working by any chance? Is it possible you are more in a rush or tense when eating breakfast and lunch, and are more relaxed while eating dinner? Just a thought. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi all… > CD since 87. The past 1-2 years for sure, I find that it is harder for me to > digest lunch versus dinner/supper. It is not related to the food itself, but > the time of day. It is hard to explain. > Anyone have similar experiences?

Response:

I take Pentasa in the morning and the evenings and I don’t deal with this. I do take some other things too.  UM MOM Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Only Pentasa really and some supps. > Just a hunch here….but do you take any meds in the morning and maybe > like > after supper ? > > Hi all… > > CD since 87. The past 1-2 years for sure, I find that it is harder for > me > to > > digest lunch versus dinner/supper. It is not related to the food itself, > but > > the time of day. It is hard to explain. > > Anyone have similar experiences?

Response:

Question:

One would think day 8 would go more smoothly than day 7 wouldn’t one?  Not! Today I kept having to put down that constant urge to reach for that pack of smokes, perhaps because it was a busy day and not my usual schedule.  I have always smoked to signal the end of something and getting into the car, coming home from work and from exercising the dog, finishing supper all triggered smoke signals.  I’m not smoking but I am annoyed at my brain. When will it get with the program? All you Rockers out there:  stay vigilant.  The nicodemon (and a hoard of squirrels) are still lurking just around the corner. Still kicking butts, Maude One week, 18 hours, 50 minutes and 38 seconds without smoking. 311 cigarettes not smoked, saving $62.28 to spend on dog agility. Life saved: 1 day, 1 hour, 55 minutes to watch my grandson grow up.  Breath saved to run with the doggies – priceless.

Response:

way to go maude, and GREAT POST! you can look forward to things getting better and — read and post daily, it works! rosie "Hell they won’t lie to me/ Not on my own damn TV/ But how much is a liar’s word worth/ And whatever happened to peace on earth?"                REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME                                    ****VOTE****

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> One would think day 8 would go more smoothly than day 7 wouldn’t one?  Not! > Today I kept having to put down that constant urge to reach for that pack of > smokes, perhaps because it was a busy day and not my usual schedule.  I have > always smoked to signal the end of something and getting into the car, > coming home from work and from exercising the dog, finishing supper all > triggered smoke signals.  I’m not smoking but I am annoyed at my brain. > When will it get with the program? > All you Rockers out there:  stay vigilant.  The nicodemon (and a hoard of > squirrels) are still lurking just around the corner. > Still kicking butts, > Maude > One week, 18 hours, 50 minutes and 38 seconds without smoking. 311 > cigarettes not smoked, saving $62.28 to spend on dog agility. Life saved: 1 > day, 1 hour, 55 minutes to watch my grandson grow up.  Breath saved to run > with the doggies – priceless.

Response:

took me 2 and a half weeks to get anything close to normal whatever normal is. you are doing great big hug paul

Response:

> took me 2 and a half weeks to get anything close

to normal whatever normal is. > you are doing great big hug > paul

Normal????  What is that????   Maude, it will get easier!   Stay tough!!! Steff Medic1455

Response:

> One would think day 8 would go more smoothly than day 7 wouldn’t one? Not! > Today I kept having to put down that constant urge to reach for that pack of > smokes, perhaps because it was a busy day and not my usual schedule.  I have > always smoked to signal the end of something and getting into the car, > coming home from work and from exercising the dog, finishing supper all > triggered smoke signals.  I’m not smoking but I am annoyed at my brain. > When will it get with the program?

Some days are just worse than others! Maybe its because of the busy day…maybe because the excitement of FWD is over and the nicodemon sneaked back in to let you know he was still around. I often get craves just before, or after milestones – I think it’s that part of my mind saying "oh shit she’s serious" and wanting to get me back onto the damn things. So don’t worry…keep on going…work through the craves and you’ll be fine hon. Oh. I saw this squirrel in chat earlier. He told me to tell you that if you smoke, he’s gonna bring his entire family to live in your attic Hugs Paula

Response:

> Oh. I saw this squirrel in chat earlier. He told me to tell you that if you > smoke, he’s gonna bring his entire family to live in your attic

Argh-h-h-h-h-h-h!  Never talk to squirrels!  It can’t be done! Thanks, Paula! Maude

Response:

Girl, you rock! You can still see that it’s a challenge instead of giving up. You are one strong rocker. Stronger than anyone would have bet! Squirrels or no squirrels, you HAVE quit, and Quit you have. Hold your head high, rejoice and label yourself a winner! Great job on the 8. I’m headed there myself… Six days, 5 hours, 45 minutes and 13 seconds. 143 cigarettes not smoked, saving $19.37. Life saved: 11 hours, 55 minutes. Gary — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >One would think day 8 would go more smoothly than day 7 wouldn’t one?  Not! >Today I kept having to put down that constant urge to reach for that pack of >smokes, perhaps because it was a busy day and not my usual schedule.  I have >always smoked to signal the end of something and getting into the car, >coming home from work and from exercising the dog, finishing supper all >triggered smoke signals.  I’m not smoking but I am annoyed at my brain. >When will it get with the program? >All you Rockers out there:  stay vigilant.  The nicodemon (and a hoard of >squirrels) are still lurking just around the corner. >Still kicking butts, >Maude >One week, 18 hours, 50 minutes and 38 seconds without smoking. 311 >cigarettes not smoked, saving $62.28 to spend on dog agility. Life saved: 1 >day, 1 hour, 55 minutes to watch my grandson grow up.  Breath saved to run >with the doggies – priceless.

Response:

Creeping up on that FWD, Gary!  When’s the party? Maude

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Girl, you rock! You can still see that it’s a challenge instead of > giving up. You are one strong rocker. Stronger than anyone would have > bet! Squirrels or no squirrels, you HAVE quit, and Quit you have. Hold > your head high, rejoice and label yourself a winner! > Great job on the 8. I’m headed there myself… > Six days, 5 hours, 45 minutes and 13 seconds. 143 cigarettes not > smoked, saving $19.37. Life saved: 11 hours, 55 minutes. > Gary > — >One would think day 8 would go more smoothly than day 7 wouldn’t one? Not! >Today I kept having to put down that constant urge to reach for that pack of >smokes, perhaps because it was a busy day and not my usual schedule.  I have >always smoked to signal the end of something and getting into the car, >coming home from work and from exercising the dog, finishing supper all >triggered smoke signals.  I’m not smoking but I am annoyed at my brain. >When will it get with the program? >All you Rockers out there:  stay vigilant.  The nicodemon (and a hoard of >squirrels) are still lurking just around the corner. >Still kicking butts, >Maude >One week, 18 hours, 50 minutes and 38 seconds without smoking. 311 >cigarettes not smoked, saving $62.28 to spend on dog agility. Life saved: 1 >day, 1 hour, 55 minutes to watch my grandson grow up.  Breath saved to run >with the doggies – priceless.

Response:

> One would think day 8 would go more smoothly than day 7 wouldn’t one?  Not!

As time goes on you get to having a bad day and then a bunch of good ones and then suddenly a bad one again.  You wonder, what made that day so bad?  I haven’t figured it out yet.  But the good news is that a bad day is usually an isolated event, not the start of something worse to come. Dawn One month, one week, one day, 1 hour, 22 minutes. 781 cigarettes not smoked, saving $195.28.

Response:

Hang in there, meter is looking great Maude. Robin. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Maude > One week, 18 hours, 50 minutes and 38 seconds without smoking. 311 > cigarettes not smoked, saving $62.28 to spend on dog agility. Life > saved: 1 day, 1 hour, 55 minutes to watch my grandson grow up. > Breath saved to run with the doggies – priceless.

Response:

Sorry Maude, somehow I missed this post. Maybe it was my own battle yesterday. Hope you’re feeling better today. You squirrel-smacker, you! Luv ya, Cat 2004 Rocker, squirrel beater, butt kicker! One week, one day, 13 hours, 16 minutes and 8 seconds. That’s 342 stinky cigarettes not choked, saving $68.42 to spend on cheese. Time saved to make my DH miserable: 1 day, 4 hours, 30 minutes.

Response:

The first application for a dance permit was denied. I’m trying again saying that it’s a "church function" (Uh, ya right!). Gary Six days, 21 hours, 15 minutes and 0 seconds. 158 cigarettes not smoked, saving $21.38. Life saved: 13 hours, 10 minutes. — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Creeping up on that FWD, Gary!  When’s the party? >Maude

Response:

> > took me 2 and a half weeks to get anything close > to normal whatever normal is. > you are doing great big hug > paul > Normal????  What is that????   Maude, it will get > easier!   Stay tough!!!

Bernice Lewis said it best: It’s a town in Illinois It’s the National Organization for the reform of Marijuana Laws It’s everything squeeky and clean the middle, the average, the mathematical mean Normal’s just a setting on the washing machine billm

Response:

Nothing normal about Normal Illinois!  lol  ;) Everything squeaky and clean?   Is that normal? uh oh!  lol — Steff Medic1455

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > took me 2 and a half weeks to get anything close > to normal whatever normal is. > > you are doing great big hug > > paul > Normal????  What is that????   Maude, it will get > easier!   Stay tough!!! > Bernice Lewis said it best: > It’s a town in Illinois > It’s the National Organization for the reform of Marijuana Laws > It’s everything squeeky and clean > the middle, the average, the mathematical mean > Normal’s just a setting on the washing machine > billm

Response:

> Oh. I saw this squirrel in chat earlier. He told

me to tell you that if you > smoke, he’s gonna bring his entire family to

live in your attic > Hugs > Paula

LOL…Paula you crack me up!  You always have the cutest things to say! Steff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

One would think day 8 would go more smoothly than day 7 wouldn’t one?  Not! Today I kept having to put down that constant urge to reach for that pack of smokes, perhaps because it was a busy day and not my usual schedule.  I have always smoked to signal the end of something and getting into the car, coming home from work and from exercising the dog, finishing supper all triggered smoke signals.  I’m not smoking but I am annoyed at my brain. When will it get with the program? All you Rockers out there:  stay vigilant.  The nicodemon (and a hoard of squirrels) are still lurking just around the corner. Still kicking butts, Maude One week, 18 hours, 50 minutes and 38 seconds without smoking. 311 cigarettes not smoked, saving $62.28 to spend on dog agility. Life saved: 1 day, 1 hour, 55 minutes to watch my grandson grow up.  Breath saved to run with the doggies – priceless.

Response:

way to go maude, and GREAT POST! you can look forward to things getting better and — read and post daily, it works! rosie "Hell they won’t lie to me/ Not on my own damn TV/ But how much is a liar’s word worth/ And whatever happened to peace on earth?"                REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME                                    ****VOTE****

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> One would think day 8 would go more smoothly than day 7 wouldn’t one?  Not! > Today I kept having to put down that constant urge to reach for that pack of > smokes, perhaps because it was a busy day and not my usual schedule.  I have > always smoked to signal the end of something and getting into the car, > coming home from work and from exercising the dog, finishing supper all > triggered smoke signals.  I’m not smoking but I am annoyed at my brain. > When will it get with the program? > All you Rockers out there:  stay vigilant.  The nicodemon (and a hoard of > squirrels) are still lurking just around the corner. > Still kicking butts, > Maude > One week, 18 hours, 50 minutes and 38 seconds without smoking. 311 > cigarettes not smoked, saving $62.28 to spend on dog agility. Life saved: 1 > day, 1 hour, 55 minutes to watch my grandson grow up.  Breath saved to run > with the doggies – priceless.

Response:

took me 2 and a half weeks to get anything close to normal whatever normal is. you are doing great big hug paul

Response:

> took me 2 and a half weeks to get anything close

to normal whatever normal is. > you are doing great big hug > paul

Normal????  What is that????   Maude, it will get easier!   Stay tough!!! Steff Medic1455

Response:

> One would think day 8 would go more smoothly than day 7 wouldn’t one? Not! > Today I kept having to put down that constant urge to reach for that pack of > smokes, perhaps because it was a busy day and not my usual schedule.  I have > always smoked to signal the end of something and getting into the car, > coming home from work and from exercising the dog, finishing supper all > triggered smoke signals.  I’m not smoking but I am annoyed at my brain. > When will it get with the program?

Some days are just worse than others! Maybe its because of the busy day…maybe because the excitement of FWD is over and the nicodemon sneaked back in to let you know he was still around. I often get craves just before, or after milestones – I think it’s that part of my mind saying "oh shit she’s serious" and wanting to get me back onto the damn things. So don’t worry…keep on going…work through the craves and you’ll be fine hon. Oh. I saw this squirrel in chat earlier. He told me to tell you that if you smoke, he’s gonna bring his entire family to live in your attic Hugs Paula

Response:

> Oh. I saw this squirrel in chat earlier. He told me to tell you that if you > smoke, he’s gonna bring his entire family to live in your attic

Argh-h-h-h-h-h-h!  Never talk to squirrels!  It can’t be done! Thanks, Paula! Maude

Response:

Girl, you rock! You can still see that it’s a challenge instead of giving up. You are one strong rocker. Stronger than anyone would have bet! Squirrels or no squirrels, you HAVE quit, and Quit you have. Hold your head high, rejoice and label yourself a winner! Great job on the 8. I’m headed there myself… Six days, 5 hours, 45 minutes and 13 seconds. 143 cigarettes not smoked, saving $19.37. Life saved: 11 hours, 55 minutes. Gary — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >One would think day 8 would go more smoothly than day 7 wouldn’t one?  Not! >Today I kept having to put down that constant urge to reach for that pack of >smokes, perhaps because it was a busy day and not my usual schedule.  I have >always smoked to signal the end of something and getting into the car, >coming home from work and from exercising the dog, finishing supper all >triggered smoke signals.  I’m not smoking but I am annoyed at my brain. >When will it get with the program? >All you Rockers out there:  stay vigilant.  The nicodemon (and a hoard of >squirrels) are still lurking just around the corner. >Still kicking butts, >Maude >One week, 18 hours, 50 minutes and 38 seconds without smoking. 311 >cigarettes not smoked, saving $62.28 to spend on dog agility. Life saved: 1 >day, 1 hour, 55 minutes to watch my grandson grow up.  Breath saved to run >with the doggies – priceless.

Response:

Creeping up on that FWD, Gary!  When’s the party? Maude

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Girl, you rock! You can still see that it’s a challenge instead of > giving up. You are one strong rocker. Stronger than anyone would have > bet! Squirrels or no squirrels, you HAVE quit, and Quit you have. Hold > your head high, rejoice and label yourself a winner! > Great job on the 8. I’m headed there myself… > Six days, 5 hours, 45 minutes and 13 seconds. 143 cigarettes not > smoked, saving $19.37. Life saved: 11 hours, 55 minutes. > Gary > — >One would think day 8 would go more smoothly than day 7 wouldn’t one? Not! >Today I kept having to put down that constant urge to reach for that pack of >smokes, perhaps because it was a busy day and not my usual schedule.  I have >always smoked to signal the end of something and getting into the car, >coming home from work and from exercising the dog, finishing supper all >triggered smoke signals.  I’m not smoking but I am annoyed at my brain. >When will it get with the program? >All you Rockers out there:  stay vigilant.  The nicodemon (and a hoard of >squirrels) are still lurking just around the corner. >Still kicking butts, >Maude >One week, 18 hours, 50 minutes and 38 seconds without smoking. 311 >cigarettes not smoked, saving $62.28 to spend on dog agility. Life saved: 1 >day, 1 hour, 55 minutes to watch my grandson grow up.  Breath saved to run >with the doggies – priceless.

Response:

> One would think day 8 would go more smoothly than day 7 wouldn’t one?  Not!

As time goes on you get to having a bad day and then a bunch of good ones and then suddenly a bad one again.  You wonder, what made that day so bad?  I haven’t figured it out yet.  But the good news is that a bad day is usually an isolated event, not the start of something worse to come. Dawn One month, one week, one day, 1 hour, 22 minutes. 781 cigarettes not smoked, saving $195.28.

Response:

Hang in there, meter is looking great Maude. Robin. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Maude > One week, 18 hours, 50 minutes and 38 seconds without smoking. 311 > cigarettes not smoked, saving $62.28 to spend on dog agility. Life > saved: 1 day, 1 hour, 55 minutes to watch my grandson grow up. > Breath saved to run with the doggies – priceless.

Response:

Sorry Maude, somehow I missed this post. Maybe it was my own battle yesterday. Hope you’re feeling better today. You squirrel-smacker, you! Luv ya, Cat 2004 Rocker, squirrel beater, butt kicker! One week, one day, 13 hours, 16 minutes and 8 seconds. That’s 342 stinky cigarettes not choked, saving $68.42 to spend on cheese. Time saved to make my DH miserable: 1 day, 4 hours, 30 minutes.

Response:

The first application for a dance permit was denied. I’m trying again saying that it’s a "church function" (Uh, ya right!). Gary Six days, 21 hours, 15 minutes and 0 seconds. 158 cigarettes not smoked, saving $21.38. Life saved: 13 hours, 10 minutes. — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Creeping up on that FWD, Gary!  When’s the party? >Maude

Response:

> > took me 2 and a half weeks to get anything close > to normal whatever normal is. > you are doing great big hug > paul > Normal????  What is that????   Maude, it will get > easier!   Stay tough!!!

Bernice Lewis said it best: It’s a town in Illinois It’s the National Organization for the reform of Marijuana Laws It’s everything squeeky and clean the middle, the average, the mathematical mean Normal’s just a setting on the washing machine billm

Response:

Nothing normal about Normal Illinois!  lol  ;) Everything squeaky and clean?   Is that normal? uh oh!  lol — Steff Medic1455

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > took me 2 and a half weeks to get anything close > to normal whatever normal is. > > you are doing great big hug > > paul > Normal????  What is that????   Maude, it will get > easier!   Stay tough!!! > Bernice Lewis said it best: > It’s a town in Illinois > It’s the National Organization for the reform of Marijuana Laws > It’s everything squeeky and clean > the middle, the average, the mathematical mean > Normal’s just a setting on the washing machine > billm

Response:

> Oh. I saw this squirrel in chat earlier. He told

me to tell you that if you > smoke, he’s gonna bring his entire family to

live in your attic > Hugs > Paula

LOL…Paula you crack me up!  You always have the cutest things to say! Steff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Question:

"dutchVanAfoort" wrote > A triple X eXtra eXtra? Sounds a bit like Ben and Jerry named that hoover.

Well, hell; if the damned thing came with an ice cream maker attachment, I’d never leave the house!

Response:

> I’m convinced that smoking hinders blood flow to the scalp. I expect to > look in the mirror in about a year and see a full head of hair. > Can any of you confirm my theory? > thx, > tj

Don’t sweat the small stuff, TJ!  Who cares if you’re bald as a cue ball?  I CAN confirm (and I’m sure men as well as other wives like me will back me up on this) that it most certainly increases blood flow to the most important area of a man’s anatomy and is QUITE noticeable after them being smoke-free for only a few days!  Quite impressive indeed and who gives a damn about whether a man has hair on his head or not when you’re paying no attention whatsoever to his scalp??? LOL! ;^D *hugs* —    BinnieBee – A Proud Double Old Fogie!         %%       (—-)      ( >__< )      ^^ ~~ ^^      ~f3as3~ Quit since 11/01/2001 http://binniebee.com http://cyberdigs.com

Response:

A triple X eXtra eXtra? Sounds a bit like Ben and Jerry named that hoover. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Paramedics in Germany rescued a 40-year-old man who got his manhood > stuck in a vacuum cleaner. > The man told authorities his relationship with his vacuum cleaner was > purely sexual: He didn’t want any attachments. > He obviously didn’t have the wet/dry Hoover model XXXXX with the extra > deep throat, attachments optional.

Response:

> Paramedics in Germany rescued a 40-year-old man who got his manhood > stuck in a vacuum cleaner. > The man told authorities his relationship with his vacuum cleaner was > purely sexual: He didn’t want any attachments.

He obviously didn’t have the wet/dry Hoover model XXXXX with the extra deep throat, attachments optional.

Response:

> Paramedics in Germany rescued a 40-year-old man who got his manhood > stuck in a vacuum cleaner. > The man told authorities his relationship with his vacuum cleaner was > purely sexual: He didn’t want any attachments.

LOL!!!!!!! hehehe…..ouch!!….geez….now I’ve heard everything…. Sally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> ummmmm…..for a start, my legs are smooth as can be…. > tj, again exercising restraint, hmmmm….where’s that vacuum cleaner??

Response:

> I’ve been quit for going on two years now and I still have plenty of hair > (on my head)…. > Sally > So you’re bald ….. where?

ummmmm…..for a start, my legs are smooth as can be…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> ummmmm…..for a start, my legs are smooth as can be….

tj, again exercising restraint, hmmmm….where’s that vacuum cleaner??

Response:

> ummmmm…..for a start, my legs are smooth as can be…. > tj, again exercising restraint, hmmmm….where’s that vacuum cleaner??

LOL, tj……cleaning house are ya?…. <g> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Paramedics in Germany rescued a 40-year-old man who got his manhood stuck in a vacuum cleaner. The man told authorities his relationship with his vacuum cleaner was purely sexual: He didn’t want any attachments. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ummmmm…..for a start, my legs are smooth as can be…. > tj, again exercising restraint, hmmmm….where’s that vacuum cleaner??

Response:

Paramedics in Germany rescued a 40-year-old man who got his manhood stuck in a vacuum cleaner. The man told authorities his relationship with his vacuum cleaner was purely sexual: He didn’t want any attachments. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Ah well, I smell nicer – and quitting doesn’t make your dick shrink >> (actually the opposite I think), so it pays us chaps to keep quit. > I hadn’t thought of that, so I’m going to have a full head of hair > and the 12 inches that Paula has indicated is the minimum acceptable. > Note…"minimum acceptable" LOLOL > I hear vacuum  cleaners work really well <eg> > Paula > Great, I think I’ll stay quit! >> — >> Succorso >> OF

Response:

> You can assume- with relative certainly, that in theory, by quiting smoking > you will increase blood flow to your scalp.

There! Proof! Next year I will have a full head of hair… thx Phoxie

Response:

> Nah – ‘fraid not – I’m as bald now as I was when I was a two-pack-a-day > junkie slave.

Sorry, but the only answer I will listen to is one that says what I want to hear. > Ah well, I smell nicer – and quitting doesn’t make your dick shrink > (actually the opposite I think), so it pays us chaps to keep quit.

I hadn’t thought of that, so I’m going to have a full head of hair and the 12 inches that Paula has indicated is the minimum acceptable. Great, I think I’ll stay quit! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Succorso > OF

Response:

> > Ah well, I smell nicer – and quitting doesn’t make your dick shrink > (actually the opposite I think), so it pays us chaps to keep quit. > I hadn’t thought of that, so I’m going to have a full head of hair and > the 12 inches that Paula has indicated is the minimum acceptable.

Note…"minimum acceptable" LOLOL I hear vacuum  cleaners work really well <eg> Paula – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Great, I think I’ll stay quit! > — > Succorso > OF

Response:

> I’ve been quit for going on two years now and I still have plenty of hair > (on my head)…. > Sally

So you’re bald ….. where?

Response:

> I’m convinced that smoking hinders blood flow to the scalp. I expect to > look in the mirror in about a year and see a full head of hair. > Can any of you confirm my theory? > thx, > tj

Nah – ‘fraid not – I’m as bald now as I was when I was a two-pack-a-day junkie slave. Ah well, I smell nicer – and quitting doesn’t make your dick shrink (actually the opposite I think), so it pays us chaps to keep quit. — Succorso OF

Response:

In research that I have been doing to program a better quit meter I have read that smoking does affect blood flow. Smoking causes arteries to constrict and has adverse affects to many of the body’s organs besides the lungs (i.e. cirrhosis of the liver and problems of the digestive track). I have seen no medical studies (yet, but this is still new research for me) that indicates that smoking can cause hair loss but I have seen studies that report a loss of blood flow and wrinkling of the epidermis (skin). You can assume- with relative certainly, that in theory, by quiting smoking you will increase blood flow to your scalp.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m convinced that smoking hinders blood flow to the scalp. I expect to > look in the mirror in about a year and see a full head of hair. > Can any of you confirm my theory? > thx, > tj

Response:

I’m convinced that smoking hinders blood flow to the scalp. I expect to look in the mirror in about a year and see a full head of hair. Can any of you confirm my theory? thx, tj

Response:

> I’m convinced that smoking hinders blood flow to the scalp. I expect to > look in the mirror in about a year and see a full head of hair. > Can any of you confirm my theory?

I’ve been quit for going on two years now and I still have plenty of hair (on my head)…. Sally 1 year, 7 months, 4 weeks, 1 day, 13 hours, 54 minutes and 15 seconds. 18,254 cigarettes not smoked, $4,280.64 saved, life saved 2M 3D 9h 11m 50s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> thx, > tj

Response:

I’m convinced that smoking hinders blood flow to the scalp. I expect to look in the mirror in about a year and see a full head of hair. Can any of you confirm my theory? thx, tj

Response:

> I’m convinced that smoking hinders blood flow to the scalp. I expect to > look in the mirror in about a year and see a full head of hair. > Can any of you confirm my theory?

I’ve been quit for going on two years now and I still have plenty of hair (on my head)…. Sally 1 year, 7 months, 4 weeks, 1 day, 13 hours, 54 minutes and 15 seconds. 18,254 cigarettes not smoked, $4,280.64 saved, life saved 2M 3D 9h 11m 50s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> thx, > tj

Response:

> I’ve been quit for going on two years now and I still have plenty of hair > (on my head)…. > Sally

So you’re bald ….. where?

Response:

> I’m convinced that smoking hinders blood flow to the scalp. I expect to > look in the mirror in about a year and see a full head of hair. > Can any of you confirm my theory? > thx, > tj

Nah – ‘fraid not – I’m as bald now as I was when I was a two-pack-a-day junkie slave. Ah well, I smell nicer – and quitting doesn’t make your dick shrink (actually the opposite I think), so it pays us chaps to keep quit. — Succorso OF

Response:

In research that I have been doing to program a better quit meter I have read that smoking does affect blood flow. Smoking causes arteries to constrict and has adverse affects to many of the body’s organs besides the lungs (i.e. cirrhosis of the liver and problems of the digestive track). I have seen no medical studies (yet, but this is still new research for me) that indicates that smoking can cause hair loss but I have seen studies that report a loss of blood flow and wrinkling of the epidermis (skin). You can assume- with relative certainly, that in theory, by quiting smoking you will increase blood flow to your scalp.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m convinced that smoking hinders blood flow to the scalp. I expect to > look in the mirror in about a year and see a full head of hair. > Can any of you confirm my theory? > thx, > tj

Response:

> You can assume- with relative certainly, that in theory, by quiting smoking > you will increase blood flow to your scalp.

There! Proof! Next year I will have a full head of hair… thx Phoxie

Response:

> Nah – ‘fraid not – I’m as bald now as I was when I was a two-pack-a-day > junkie slave.

Sorry, but the only answer I will listen to is one that says what I want to hear. > Ah well, I smell nicer – and quitting doesn’t make your dick shrink > (actually the opposite I think), so it pays us chaps to keep quit.

I hadn’t thought of that, so I’m going to have a full head of hair and the 12 inches that Paula has indicated is the minimum acceptable. Great, I think I’ll stay quit! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Succorso > OF

Response:

> > Ah well, I smell nicer – and quitting doesn’t make your dick shrink > (actually the opposite I think), so it pays us chaps to keep quit. > I hadn’t thought of that, so I’m going to have a full head of hair and > the 12 inches that Paula has indicated is the minimum acceptable.

Note…"minimum acceptable" LOLOL I hear vacuum  cleaners work really well <eg> Paula – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Great, I think I’ll stay quit! > — > Succorso > OF

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> I’ve been quit for going on two years now and I still have plenty of hair > (on my head)…. > Sally > So you’re bald ….. where?

ummmmm…..for a start, my legs are smooth as can be…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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> ummmmm…..for a start, my legs are smooth as can be….

tj, again exercising restraint, hmmmm….where’s that vacuum cleaner??

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> ummmmm…..for a start, my legs are smooth as can be…. > tj, again exercising restraint, hmmmm….where’s that vacuum cleaner??

LOL, tj……cleaning house are ya?…. <g> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Paramedics in Germany rescued a 40-year-old man who got his manhood stuck in a vacuum cleaner. The man told authorities his relationship with his vacuum cleaner was purely sexual: He didn’t want any attachments. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ummmmm…..for a start, my legs are smooth as can be…. > tj, again exercising restraint, hmmmm….where’s that vacuum cleaner??

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Paramedics in Germany rescued a 40-year-old man who got his manhood stuck in a vacuum cleaner. The man told authorities his relationship with his vacuum cleaner was purely sexual: He didn’t want any attachments. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Ah well, I smell nicer – and quitting doesn’t make your dick shrink >> (actually the opposite I think), so it pays us chaps to keep quit. > I hadn’t thought of that, so I’m going to have a full head of hair > and the 12 inches that Paula has indicated is the minimum acceptable. > Note…"minimum acceptable" LOLOL > I hear vacuum  cleaners work really well <eg> > Paula > Great, I think I’ll stay quit! >> — >> Succorso >> OF

Response:

> Paramedics in Germany rescued a 40-year-old man who got his manhood > stuck in a vacuum cleaner. > The man told authorities his relationship with his vacuum cleaner was > purely sexual: He didn’t want any attachments.

LOL!!!!!!! hehehe…..ouch!!….geez….now I’ve heard everything…. Sally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> ummmmm…..for a start, my legs are smooth as can be…. > tj, again exercising restraint, hmmmm….where’s that vacuum cleaner??

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> Paramedics in Germany rescued a 40-year-old man who got his manhood > stuck in a vacuum cleaner. > The man told authorities his relationship with his vacuum cleaner was > purely sexual: He didn’t want any attachments.

He obviously didn’t have the wet/dry Hoover model XXXXX with the extra deep throat, attachments optional.

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A triple X eXtra eXtra? Sounds a bit like Ben and Jerry named that hoover. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Paramedics in Germany rescued a 40-year-old man who got his manhood > stuck in a vacuum cleaner. > The man told authorities his relationship with his vacuum cleaner was > purely sexual: He didn’t want any attachments. > He obviously didn’t have the wet/dry Hoover model XXXXX with the extra > deep throat, attachments optional.

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> I’m convinced that smoking hinders blood flow to the scalp. I expect to > look in the mirror in about a year and see a full head of hair. > Can any of you confirm my theory? > thx, > tj

Don’t sweat the small stuff, TJ!  Who cares if you’re bald as a cue ball?  I CAN confirm (and I’m sure men as well as other wives like me will back me up on this) that it most certainly increases blood flow to the most important area of a man’s anatomy and is QUITE noticeable after them being smoke-free for only a few days!  Quite impressive indeed and who gives a damn about whether a man has hair on his head or not when you’re paying no attention whatsoever to his scalp??? LOL! ;^D *hugs* —    BinnieBee – A Proud Double Old Fogie!         %%       (—-)      ( >__< )      ^^ ~~ ^^      ~f3as3~ Quit since 11/01/2001 http://binniebee.com http://cyberdigs.com

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"dutchVanAfoort" wrote > A triple X eXtra eXtra? Sounds a bit like Ben and Jerry named that hoover.

Well, hell; if the damned thing came with an ice cream maker attachment, I’d never leave the house!

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Question:

I saw that!! The H&H is starting to spread!!! Whooooohoooooo! With smiles and dancing, Kathleen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Sheena, > We are all here for you to talk to! > One last f**k may not do much harm – even if it does no good. > One more cigarette blows your quit and does positive harm. > But you know all that. > I don’t know the answer for you, but I will sit here and listen to you > asking the questions. > With some of K’s Hope and Heart > Steve aka Steve

Response:

Good for you Sheena/Ana Really facing up to that kind of stuff is so important. I find that stuff that happened in the past, that I got through by smoking, is really starting to come up in my thoughts and dreams again. I think without my nico crutch, stuff that I used to skim over is now popping out of my brain and saying "oh hey remember me, i was xxxx bad thing that happened to you". Ohhh…and I so understand the crave after eating, especially when you have eaten lots! I found that I just can’t eat too much at the moment because I really crave after a big meal. Not sure what that trigger is, but it is the same for me, I am almost grazing at the moment rather than eating set meals. You are doing so well. Keep up the good work. Enjoy the coffee Paula

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just woke up and my thoughts are rambling and nobody else is here > for me to talk it out with, so please bear with me. I’m still trying > to sort out why I caved in the last time. I wasn’t craving a smoke, I > can deal with the craves for now and I recognize them and wait them > out. I think I’m feeling some of the same things as BadHorsie – I’m > sort of lost without the smokes. They were so much a part of who I > was. > It’s like going back for one last fuck <badword!> from an affair gone > bad. Hrm… it’s a lot like that. I was disgusted with m’self for > doing it. I didn’t have to. I didn’t need to. I’m thinking that I > wanted to make sure that it is over. > It is. > I was reading a post from someone on another group last night. She was > wondering why she kept having petty fights with her boyfriend, more so > since they’ve set a wedding date. She has some physical problems and > is concerned about his ability to handle them down the road. My mind > flashed back to a saying I clipped and kept in my scrapbook for years. > I think it applies to her and I hope it applies to me as far as > smoking: > "If I think you are going to leave me, I’ll do everything in my power > to make sure you do." > I have started exercising and taking my supplements again so that it > is easier for me to stay with my new and improved way of eating. > Happily, this cuts down on the cravings because the worst ones were > always after eating, especially if I was really stuffed. > The End. Coffee is ready. [_]> > — > Sheena aka Ana > ~October 1, 2002~

Response:

You are doing fine, really.  The fact that you are thinking this out is a big step toward it not happening again.  I’m glad you came here.  That one last (gasp fuck – cig – whatever.  Well that seems to be something that most of the quitters I’ve talked to and read here seem to always say is in that whining voice that tried to get us to smoke – just one.  For some reason we want to keep doing it over and over.  Same stupid mistake hoping for a new result.  Instead we get the same result.  Back to the addiction. Ana, I still have that voice sometimes.  I just dismiss it now.  It’s just a shadow of my old self.  I don’t want to smoke anymore so I don’t.  I can’t do one.  I can’t.  Neither can you. Kim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just woke up and my thoughts are rambling and nobody else is here > for me to talk it out with, so please bear with me. I’m still trying > to sort out why I caved in the last time. I wasn’t craving a smoke, I > can deal with the craves for now and I recognize them and wait them > out. I think I’m feeling some of the same things as BadHorsie – I’m > sort of lost without the smokes. They were so much a part of who I > was. > It’s like going back for one last fuck <badword!> from an affair gone > bad. Hrm… it’s a lot like that. I was disgusted with m’self for > doing it. I didn’t have to. I didn’t need to. I’m thinking that I > wanted to make sure that it is over. > It is. > I was reading a post from someone on another group last night. She was > wondering why she kept having petty fights with her boyfriend, more so > since they’ve set a wedding date. She has some physical problems and > is concerned about his ability to handle them down the road. My mind > flashed back to a saying I clipped and kept in my scrapbook for years. > I think it applies to her and I hope it applies to me as far as > smoking: > "If I think you are going to leave me, I’ll do everything in my power > to make sure you do." > I have started exercising and taking my supplements again so that it > is easier for me to stay with my new and improved way of eating. > Happily, this cuts down on the cravings because the worst ones were > always after eating, especially if I was really stuffed. > The End. Coffee is ready. [_]> > — > Sheena aka Ana > ~October 1, 2002~

Response:

We aren’t disappointed that you blew a perfectly good quit Sheena. Heck, that is easy to do! Can you say addiction? Look at the boyfriend (habit) again. Look right in his eyes and tell him it’s over. Does that scare you? If you know he’s really bad for you then you should be drawing a little strength from the fact you are leaving him. You know he was a lousy lover anyway    :-) — Life starts without addiction.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I just woke up and my thoughts are rambling and nobody else is here >for me to talk it out with, so please bear with me. I’m still trying >to sort out why I caved in the last time. I wasn’t craving a smoke, I >can deal with the craves for now and I recognize them and wait them >out. I think I’m feeling some of the same things as BadHorsie – I’m >sort of lost without the smokes. They were so much a part of who I >was. >It’s like going back for one last fuck <badword!> from an affair gone >bad. Hrm… it’s a lot like that. I was disgusted with m’self for >doing it. I didn’t have to. I didn’t need to. I’m thinking that I >wanted to make sure that it is over. >It is. >I was reading a post from someone on another group last night. She was >wondering why she kept having petty fights with her boyfriend, more so >since they’ve set a wedding date. She has some physical problems and >is concerned about his ability to handle them down the road. My mind >flashed back to a saying I clipped and kept in my scrapbook for years. >I think it applies to her and I hope it applies to me as far as >smoking: >"If I think you are going to leave me, I’ll do everything in my power >to make sure you do." >I have started exercising and taking my supplements again so that it >is easier for me to stay with my new and improved way of eating. >Happily, this cuts down on the cravings because the worst ones were >always after eating, especially if I was really stuffed. >The End. Coffee is ready. [_]> >–   >Sheena aka Ana >~October 1, 2002~

Hi Sheena, We are all here for you to talk to! One last f**k may not do much harm – even if it does no good. One more cigarette blows your quit and does positive harm. But you know all that. I don’t know the answer for you, but I will sit here and listen to you asking the questions. With some of K’s Hope and Heart Steve aka Steve

Response:

I just woke up and my thoughts are rambling and nobody else is here for me to talk it out with, so please bear with me. I’m still trying to sort out why I caved in the last time. I wasn’t craving a smoke, I can deal with the craves for now and I recognize them and wait them out. I think I’m feeling some of the same things as BadHorsie – I’m sort of lost without the smokes. They were so much a part of who I was. It’s like going back for one last fuck <badword!> from an affair gone bad. Hrm… it’s a lot like that. I was disgusted with m’self for doing it. I didn’t have to. I didn’t need to. I’m thinking that I wanted to make sure that it is over. It is. I was reading a post from someone on another group last night. She was wondering why she kept having petty fights with her boyfriend, more so since they’ve set a wedding date. She has some physical problems and is concerned about his ability to handle them down the road. My mind flashed back to a saying I clipped and kept in my scrapbook for years. I think it applies to her and I hope it applies to me as far as smoking: "If I think you are going to leave me, I’ll do everything in my power to make sure you do." I have started exercising and taking my supplements again so that it is easier for me to stay with my new and improved way of eating. Happily, this cuts down on the cravings because the worst ones were always after eating, especially if I was really stuffed. The End. Coffee is ready. [_]> —   Sheena aka Ana ~October 1, 2002~

Response:

Thanks Paula. That made a great deal of sense. tj – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > When a man realised there is a disparity, and takes the first step in a > journey to becoming the man he wants to be, he is indeed then a man. Your > first step is quitting. Big step. From that, all other things will flow. > When you quit, you build your self esteem, your energy, your excitement at > life. It takes time, but a new TJ will come out of this…a smoke free TJ > who has achieved something incredible. And that will translate to each part > of your life, in time. You took a lot of time to get into the rut you are > in…it will take some time to dig yourself out and go on to better things. > Paula > (I have no idea if that made sense, but it’s how I feel!)

Response:

While this may be W.L.Weller talking, there must be some validity. Why else would I post it? I have been, admittedly, pissed off most of the day. Dunno why, but this is not a rant. The following should be considered as gender non-specific; masculine forms are used for brevity. How does a man reconcile the disparity between what he is and what he wishes to be, especially when he knows that this is wholly due to his own fucking laziness and gutless inability to make the few simple lifestyle changes that would erase the discrepancy? (wow, my spell checker just fixed the way I spelled fuckin…ain’t that great?)

Response:

> While this may be W.L.Weller talking, there must be some validity. Why > else would I post it? > I have been, admittedly, pissed off most of the day. Dunno why, but this > is not a rant. The following should be considered as gender > non-specific; masculine forms are used for brevity. > How does a man reconcile the disparity between what he is and what he > wishes to be, especially when he knows that this is wholly due to his > own fucking laziness and gutless inability to make the few simple > lifestyle changes that would erase the discrepancy?

When a man realised there is a disparity, and takes the first step in a journey to becoming the man he wants to be, he is indeed then a man. Your first step is quitting. Big step. From that, all other things will flow. When you quit, you build your self esteem, your energy, your excitement at life. It takes time, but a new TJ will come out of this…a smoke free TJ who has achieved something incredible. And that will translate to each part of your life, in time. You took a lot of time to get into the rut you are in…it will take some time to dig yourself out and go on to better things. Paula (I have no idea if that made sense, but it’s how I feel!)

Response:

I just woke up and my thoughts are rambling and nobody else is here for me to talk it out with, so please bear with me. I’m still trying to sort out why I caved in the last time. I wasn’t craving a smoke, I can deal with the craves for now and I recognize them and wait them out. I think I’m feeling some of the same things as BadHorsie – I’m sort of lost without the smokes. They were so much a part of who I was. It’s like going back for one last fuck <badword!> from an affair gone bad. Hrm… it’s a lot like that. I was disgusted with m’self for doing it. I didn’t have to. I didn’t need to. I’m thinking that I wanted to make sure that it is over. It is. I was reading a post from someone on another group last night. She was wondering why she kept having petty fights with her boyfriend, more so since they’ve set a wedding date. She has some physical problems and is concerned about his ability to handle them down the road. My mind flashed back to a saying I clipped and kept in my scrapbook for years. I think it applies to her and I hope it applies to me as far as smoking: "If I think you are going to leave me, I’ll do everything in my power to make sure you do." I have started exercising and taking my supplements again so that it is easier for me to stay with my new and improved way of eating. Happily, this cuts down on the cravings because the worst ones were always after eating, especially if I was really stuffed. The End. Coffee is ready. [_]> —   Sheena aka Ana ~October 1, 2002~

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I just woke up and my thoughts are rambling and nobody else is here >for me to talk it out with, so please bear with me. I’m still trying >to sort out why I caved in the last time. I wasn’t craving a smoke, I >can deal with the craves for now and I recognize them and wait them >out. I think I’m feeling some of the same things as BadHorsie – I’m >sort of lost without the smokes. They were so much a part of who I >was. >It’s like going back for one last fuck <badword!> from an affair gone >bad. Hrm… it’s a lot like that. I was disgusted with m’self for >doing it. I didn’t have to. I didn’t need to. I’m thinking that I >wanted to make sure that it is over. >It is. >I was reading a post from someone on another group last night. She was >wondering why she kept having petty fights with her boyfriend, more so >since they’ve set a wedding date. She has some physical problems and >is concerned about his ability to handle them down the road. My mind >flashed back to a saying I clipped and kept in my scrapbook for years. >I think it applies to her and I hope it applies to me as far as >smoking: >"If I think you are going to leave me, I’ll do everything in my power >to make sure you do." >I have started exercising and taking my supplements again so that it >is easier for me to stay with my new and improved way of eating. >Happily, this cuts down on the cravings because the worst ones were >always after eating, especially if I was really stuffed. >The End. Coffee is ready. [_]> >–   >Sheena aka Ana >~October 1, 2002~

Hi Sheena, We are all here for you to talk to! One last f**k may not do much harm – even if it does no good. One more cigarette blows your quit and does positive harm. But you know all that. I don’t know the answer for you, but I will sit here and listen to you asking the questions. With some of K’s Hope and Heart Steve aka Steve

Response:

We aren’t disappointed that you blew a perfectly good quit Sheena. Heck, that is easy to do! Can you say addiction? Look at the boyfriend (habit) again. Look right in his eyes and tell him it’s over. Does that scare you? If you know he’s really bad for you then you should be drawing a little strength from the fact you are leaving him. You know he was a lousy lover anyway    :-) — Life starts without addiction.

Response:

You are doing fine, really.  The fact that you are thinking this out is a big step toward it not happening again.  I’m glad you came here.  That one last (gasp fuck – cig – whatever.  Well that seems to be something that most of the quitters I’ve talked to and read here seem to always say is in that whining voice that tried to get us to smoke – just one.  For some reason we want to keep doing it over and over.  Same stupid mistake hoping for a new result.  Instead we get the same result.  Back to the addiction. Ana, I still have that voice sometimes.  I just dismiss it now.  It’s just a shadow of my old self.  I don’t want to smoke anymore so I don’t.  I can’t do one.  I can’t.  Neither can you. Kim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just woke up and my thoughts are rambling and nobody else is here > for me to talk it out with, so please bear with me. I’m still trying > to sort out why I caved in the last time. I wasn’t craving a smoke, I > can deal with the craves for now and I recognize them and wait them > out. I think I’m feeling some of the same things as BadHorsie – I’m > sort of lost without the smokes. They were so much a part of who I > was. > It’s like going back for one last fuck <badword!> from an affair gone > bad. Hrm… it’s a lot like that. I was disgusted with m’self for > doing it. I didn’t have to. I didn’t need to. I’m thinking that I > wanted to make sure that it is over. > It is. > I was reading a post from someone on another group last night. She was > wondering why she kept having petty fights with her boyfriend, more so > since they’ve set a wedding date. She has some physical problems and > is concerned about his ability to handle them down the road. My mind > flashed back to a saying I clipped and kept in my scrapbook for years. > I think it applies to her and I hope it applies to me as far as > smoking: > "If I think you are going to leave me, I’ll do everything in my power > to make sure you do." > I have started exercising and taking my supplements again so that it > is easier for me to stay with my new and improved way of eating. > Happily, this cuts down on the cravings because the worst ones were > always after eating, especially if I was really stuffed. > The End. Coffee is ready. [_]> > — > Sheena aka Ana > ~October 1, 2002~

Response:

Good for you Sheena/Ana Really facing up to that kind of stuff is so important. I find that stuff that happened in the past, that I got through by smoking, is really starting to come up in my thoughts and dreams again. I think without my nico crutch, stuff that I used to skim over is now popping out of my brain and saying "oh hey remember me, i was xxxx bad thing that happened to you". Ohhh…and I so understand the crave after eating, especially when you have eaten lots! I found that I just can’t eat too much at the moment because I really crave after a big meal. Not sure what that trigger is, but it is the same for me, I am almost grazing at the moment rather than eating set meals. You are doing so well. Keep up the good work. Enjoy the coffee Paula

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just woke up and my thoughts are rambling and nobody else is here > for me to talk it out with, so please bear with me. I’m still trying > to sort out why I caved in the last time. I wasn’t craving a smoke, I > can deal with the craves for now and I recognize them and wait them > out. I think I’m feeling some of the same things as BadHorsie – I’m > sort of lost without the smokes. They were so much a part of who I > was. > It’s like going back for one last fuck <badword!> from an affair gone > bad. Hrm… it’s a lot like that. I was disgusted with m’self for > doing it. I didn’t have to. I didn’t need to. I’m thinking that I > wanted to make sure that it is over. > It is. > I was reading a post from someone on another group last night. She was > wondering why she kept having petty fights with her boyfriend, more so > since they’ve set a wedding date. She has some physical problems and > is concerned about his ability to handle them down the road. My mind > flashed back to a saying I clipped and kept in my scrapbook for years. > I think it applies to her and I hope it applies to me as far as > smoking: > "If I think you are going to leave me, I’ll do everything in my power > to make sure you do." > I have started exercising and taking my supplements again so that it > is easier for me to stay with my new and improved way of eating. > Happily, this cuts down on the cravings because the worst ones were > always after eating, especially if I was really stuffed. > The End. Coffee is ready. [_]> > — > Sheena aka Ana > ~October 1, 2002~

Response:

I saw that!! The H&H is starting to spread!!! Whooooohoooooo! With smiles and dancing, Kathleen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Sheena, > We are all here for you to talk to! > One last f**k may not do much harm – even if it does no good. > One more cigarette blows your quit and does positive harm. > But you know all that. > I don’t know the answer for you, but I will sit here and listen to you > asking the questions. > With some of K’s Hope and Heart > Steve aka Steve

Response:

While this may be W.L.Weller talking, there must be some validity. Why else would I post it? I have been, admittedly, pissed off most of the day. Dunno why, but this is not a rant. The following should be considered as gender non-specific; masculine forms are used for brevity. How does a man reconcile the disparity between what he is and what he wishes to be, especially when he knows that this is wholly due to his own fucking laziness and gutless inability to make the few simple lifestyle changes that would erase the discrepancy? (wow, my spell checker just fixed the way I spelled fuckin…ain’t that great?)

Response:

> While this may be W.L.Weller talking, there must be some validity. Why > else would I post it? > I have been, admittedly, pissed off most of the day. Dunno why, but this > is not a rant. The following should be considered as gender > non-specific; masculine forms are used for brevity. > How does a man reconcile the disparity between what he is and what he > wishes to be, especially when he knows that this is wholly due to his > own fucking laziness and gutless inability to make the few simple > lifestyle changes that would erase the discrepancy?

When a man realised there is a disparity, and takes the first step in a journey to becoming the man he wants to be, he is indeed then a man. Your first step is quitting. Big step. From that, all other things will flow. When you quit, you build your self esteem, your energy, your excitement at life. It takes time, but a new TJ will come out of this…a smoke free TJ who has achieved something incredible. And that will translate to each part of your life, in time. You took a lot of time to get into the rut you are in…it will take some time to dig yourself out and go on to better things. Paula (I have no idea if that made sense, but it’s how I feel!)

Response:

Thanks Paula. That made a great deal of sense. tj – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > When a man realised there is a disparity, and takes the first step in a > journey to becoming the man he wants to be, he is indeed then a man. Your > first step is quitting. Big step. From that, all other things will flow. > When you quit, you build your self esteem, your energy, your excitement at > life. It takes time, but a new TJ will come out of this…a smoke free TJ > who has achieved something incredible. And that will translate to each part > of your life, in time. You took a lot of time to get into the rut you are > in…it will take some time to dig yourself out and go on to better things. > Paula > (I have no idea if that made sense, but it’s how I feel!)

Response: