Exercise R Us » Biking » Racing right-of-way: passing riders
Question:
> > > Hi, all. I have been aware of some conflicts in Southern California > > cross country races concerning rights of way on the trail and passing > > other riders. I’ve even been part of one or two! So, I’d like to > > throw a few things out for discussion. > I honestly don’t know where this yelling of "track" got started since > they don’t do it in track or road racing, nor in motorcross, or even > in automobile racing, nor in BMX… it seems perculiar to mountain > biking.
The yelling of "track" is from running, where in the longer distance races the slower runners get lapped and move to the outside of the track while being passed. As for the right of way, the lead rider has the right of way. Even if the other rider is faster. You just have to wait for a spot where you can pass. jude oseto
Response:
[snip] > The yelling of "track" is from running, where in the longer distance > races the slower runners get lapped and move to the outside of the track > while being passed. > As for the right of way, the lead rider has the right of way. Even if the > other rider is faster. You just have to wait for a spot where you can pass.
The lapped lead rider’s only ‘right’ is to yield trail at the first possible position. In Grundig/NCS races, the lead MOTO will pull the lapped lead riders off the course while the race leaders pass. In virtually every race I’ve been to the race promoter makes it clear that lapped riders must yield trail to the call of track. — Dave Blake http://www.keck.ucsf.edu/~dblake
Response:
>> I honestly don’t know where this yelling of "track" got started since > they don’t do it in track or road racing, nor in motorcross, or even > in automobile racing, nor in BMX…. >The tradition of yelling "track" comes from track and field. During middle
I think more of us have picked up the practise of "tracking" slower riders from cross-country skiing. Its use is identical in the sport.
Response:
> > I honestly don’t know where this yelling of "track" got started since > they don’t do it in track or road racing, nor in motorcross, or even > in automobile racing, nor in BMX…. > The tradition of yelling "track" comes from track and field. During middle > and long distance events a runner yells "track" when lapping a runner, > or when warning a spectator to get out of the lane. I can understand how this trickled > down to MTB racing because I think the sport has attracted a lot of distance > runners (myself included). I also think it is easier to spew out during a race > than "on yer left".
Unfortunetly 50% of the time, when someone yells track, you’ll move in the direction they wee planning to pass you on. Myself I always pick the direction that forces them onto the rougher line…
Response:
> > Hi, all. I have been aware of some conflicts in Southern California > cross country races concerning rights of way on the trail and passing > other riders. I’ve even been part of one or two! So, I’d like to > throw a few things out for discussion. > I honestly don’t know where this yelling of "track" got started since > they don’t do it in track or road racing, nor in motorcross, or even > in automobile racing, nor in BMX… it seems perculiar to mountain > biking.
The only other type of racing I do on trails is XC skiing, where "track", or the international version "hup" is always used. Generally, however, there is plenty of room for two skiers at a time. That said, when the grooming is bad, tempers can get flared when the faster skier is asking for the fastest part of the track. Jon Sundquist
Response:
> I honestly don’t know where this yelling of "track" got started since > they don’t do it in track or road racing, nor in motorcross, or even > in automobile racing, nor in BMX….
The tradition of yelling "track" comes from track and field. During middle and long distance events a runner yells "track" when lapping a runner, or when warning a spectator to get out of the lane. I can understand how this trickled down to MTB racing because I think the sport has attracted a lot of distance runners (myself included). I also think it is easier to spew out during a race than "on yer left". -Pete A
Response:
> : I honestly don’t know where this yelling of "track" got started since > : they don’t do it in track or road racing, nor in motorcross, or even > : in automobile racing, nor in BMX… it seems perculiar to mountain > : biking.
[snip] I think it is most likely of cyclocross origin. After all, cyclocross races can have laps as short as 10 minutes for 1 hour races. It is very very common to have to pass many lapped riders. That is where I heard it first. — Dave Blake http://www.keck.ucsf.edu/~dblake
Response:
: I honestly don’t know where this yelling of "track" got started since : they don’t do it in track or road racing, nor in motorcross, or even : in automobile racing, nor in BMX… it seems perculiar to mountain : biking. It also seems most racers NEVER look over their shoulders : when mountain biking (unlike road racing for instance) to check for : other riders overtaking them. And worst of all, when getting passed by Maybe "track" and not looking over your shoulder come from all the ex-runners turned mtn bikers. When I used to run competitively, it was common to yell "track" if you were overtaking a slower runner (if you had the energy to say anything). Also, we were taught to NEVER look over our shoulders. Looking over your shoulder was always associated with being too tired to push the pace and it always seemed like right when you looked over your shoulder, you lost a step and the person passed you. Oh yeah, there isn’t much comraderie in running, its pure competition, which looks like the direction mtn bike racing is headed towards. Brad Baker
Response:
> Hi, all. I have been aware of some conflicts in Southern California > cross country races concerning rights of way on the trail and passing > other riders. I’ve even been part of one or two! So, I’d like to > throw a few things out for discussion.
I honestly don’t know where this yelling of "track" got started since they don’t do it in track or road racing, nor in motorcross, or even in automobile racing, nor in BMX… it seems perculiar to mountain biking. It also seems most racers NEVER look over their shoulders when mountain biking (unlike road racing for instance) to check for other riders overtaking them. And worst of all, when getting passed by several riders in a sprint, its only ever the lead rider who clues in to yell "track"… I got nailed by a guy (who claimed to be in third) when the leader came around, yelled track (in a spot where there was no place to go), slipped by, followed by another rider on his wheel… #3 was 10 feet behind them and didn’t bother to annouce his presence until we clipped barends. As to being passed by riders when you walking/carrying your bike… I will leave the trail (especially on switchback climbs and just take the shortest route up the hill), but I’m not about to stop or step off a cliff so someone else can pass me. I had a rider blame me for his running out of steam on a grinder switchback climb, and then losing his balance and falling DOWN the hill onto me (who was not on the trail but in the grass to the side). It was after a few incidents like this that I realized mountain bike racing was losing its ‘friendly’ appeal and becomming more like road racing (which I’ve avoided for the elitist attitudes of most racers), which is why I’ve gone from doing EVERY local/regional race to doing very few of them. go stra
Response:
>Some of why I posted what I originally did is that there seems to be >a bit of growing acrimony in some local cross country races where riders >seem to feel it is appropriate to vent their frustrations on other >competitors because the other rider is too slow or falls down or takes >the complainer down (even if the complainer was not the greatest bike >handler and partly at fault). Jeepers. If I wanted to hear all this >during races, I’d go ride a local criterium. This weekend I will, >actually, since the available crit is closer.
While I certainly feel it is inappropriate to vent your frustration at someone at a local race (unless it is well-deserved) it also wise to know your limits. Here is a good example of how this little string may have been started… At a race about three weeks ago, somebody decided they could pass a group of people on a steep technical climb when it certainly wasn’t in their ability. I happened to be leading about 4 people up the climb when this kid decided he was going to pass (which all perfectly fine and normal and part of the race) but then blew up about 20 yards from the top and then tipped over and sprawled out across the entire trail. He tipped over and ended up taking me with him since he couldn’t manage to get off the trail. We weren’t going fast enough to do too much damage to our bodies, but it did end up breaking a pedal. It also happened that the other three people were also close enough and now had two bodies on the ground to contend with and everyone else ended up tipping over since we all had the luxury of clipless pedals and the trail wasn’t wide enough to accomodate going around. Now, if the kid had enough brains to wait until the top where it levelled off and then make a charge to pass, no one would have probably tipped and I would still have a pair of good pedals. This particular course had a number of these short but very steep technical climbs where people couldn’t get out of their pedals and then blocked the trail, causing a number of people behind them to tip or click out and then have to run up the hill. My frustration came from the fact I had to spend money on some hardware, not that the kid tried to pass me, but if he had known his limits and abilities, it would have been a much better day. I felt (and feel still) that this is all the joy of mountain bike racing and you have good days and bad days, but there are other people who might not have let it go and confronted the kid on the course or at the finish line and making a big unnecessary seen for everyone at the race.
Response:
(clipped from my original posting): > 2. The situation of a rider catching a rider in front who is in a > different race, e.g. after the wave start a beginner catches a sport > or, as is common, experts come around and start passing sport or > beginner riders. > I think a similar situation came up in a previous thread or flamefest, > but I wasn’t around for all of it. Just for clarity, I don’t think a > rider caught from behind in another race has to automatically yield to > riders from a faster subgroup of another race. I think this situation > is the same as 3 below. > 3. The situation where one rider catches another from the same race. > The rider in front is not required to yield the trail. How do you > handle passing and what do you do to let the rider ahead know where > you are? I’ve been on both sides of passing/being passed (more often > being passed, I must admit).
(Eric notes for 3 as compared to 2) >These are the people you are racing against. If you’re going to move out of >the way, why race?
I should clarify: I treat 2) and 3) basically the same and I don’t give faster riders a hard time passing, even if they’re in my race. I figure if there is a faster descender in my race, I’ll let that racer by and follow to watch and learn. If the difference is marginal or I don’t know then I naturally keep my course. If you are not obliged to move over and you elect not to in your race although there is a faster descender coming up on you then that is okay, too, so far as I’m concerned. Jody White
Response:
>> 2. The situation of a rider catching a rider in front who is in a > different race, e.g. after the wave start a beginner catches a sport > or, as is common, experts come around and start passing sport or > beginner riders. > I think a similar situation came up in a previous thread or flamefest, > but I wasn’t around for all of it. Just for clarity, I don’t think a > rider caught from behind in another race has to automatically yield to > riders from a faster subgroup of another race. I think this situation > is the same as 3 below.
(Eric replies) >You’re not racing that person, the situation is completely different. >As soon as it’s convenient (and safe) get out of the >way. If you make them work to pass you, you deserve to be block passed >into the weeds. You gain nothing by holding them up, and they lose time >dicing with someone they aren’t even competing against. Blocking faster >riders in another class is really bad form.
I _do_ let these riders pass as soon as it is convenient. I don’t generally get off my bike and hop over into the weeds to make it easier for them to pass, however. If someone comes up on you in a harder to pass sections, like a narrow bumpy downhill, it is damn near impossible to just stop on a dime or pull to the side to let him by. Riders in different races should certainly let others from a different class pass when the come by and I agree that blocking them is indeed bad form. I don’t know if you were making a general statement or reading more into my post than I had intended. I similarly feel that it is poor form for riders in other classes to approach slower riders from another race and scream and complain at them if you’re in, say, one of those little difficult to pass sections and you are having to delay a few seconds to get through. However, I have observed it and I think it reflects poorly on our sport and on the rider involved. > 4. The last item to discuss is how to judge when to pass safely and > how much notice you need to give riders ahead. This depends on the > racing situation and trail conditions, obviously, and will be a > judgement call. It is risky to assume that someone heard and understood > a hurried command of "track" or whatever so you can try to plow through > a narrow trail section with about two inches of room to spare. This > overlaps previous topics, but I thought I’d spell it out and see what > thoughts other riders have. >Jeez, how can someone so risk averse race mountain bikes at all? If you’re >going fast enough to do it, of course you just plow through, everybody >out there is also a racer, and should know not to make lots of unexpected >moves. Why say anything at all? If they are uncomfortable with people >blowing by 2 inches away from them, they shouldn’t be racing. Of course, it >is nice to give a warning, especially if they are in a different class, >in which case yell ‘track’ or ‘rider’ or ‘passing’ before you plow through.
I have passed and been passed in these circumstances. I also feel that if you do it and someone in front slips on a rock or _you_ slip on a rock going by and there is contact and you or the other guy goes down, that’s too bad and then you just clip back in and keep going. Hazards of racing. Some of why I posted what I originally did is that there seems to be a bit of growing acrimony in some local cross country races where riders seem to feel it is appropriate to vent their frustrations on other competitors because the other rider is too slow or falls down or takes the complainer down (even if the complainer was not the greatest bike handler and partly at fault). Jeepers. If I wanted to hear all this during races, I’d go ride a local criterium. This weekend I will, actually, since the available crit is closer. Jody White
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, all. I have been aware of some conflicts in Southern California > cross country races concerning rights of way on the trail and passing > other riders. I’ve even been part of one or two! So, I’d like to > throw a few things out for discussion. > 1. The situation of a rider walking a bike or a lapped rider > 2. The situation of a rider catching a rider in front who is in a > different race, > 3. The situation where one rider catches another from the same race. > 4. The last item to discuss is how to judge when to pass safely and > how much notice you need to give riders ahead.
1)First of all, walking and/or lapped racers do everything in their power to let riders past. They have no rights over a rider. 2)If you catch a rider in front who is in a different race, no one HAS to let anyone past. If it is more than 30 minutes into a race generally anyone who realizes a faster rider is coming up on him will let the rider past. 3) See 2). 4) The passing rider does bear responsibility for a safe pass. However, in case 1) the passing rider may cream the passed racer if he/she doesn’t yield trail. In cases 2 or 3 the riders will generally wait for a good spot ie: trail is wide enough for doubletracking. — Dave Blake http://www.keck.ucsf.edu/~dblake
Response:
These are good questions, which every potential racer should think about before they race. My contributions are just opinions formed over the course of many years of racing, and not just mountain bike racing, I’ve also run races, and raced windsurfers and motorcycles. > 1. The situation of a rider walking a bike or a lapped rider on the > course. The competition guide states that riders walking bikes must > yield to racers riding bikes and lapped riders also must yield to > lapping riders. The passing rider is obliged to say "track" and > pass safely.
If you can’t ride it, and you can’t run faster than the guy behind you, then get the hell out of the way. If that requires you to stand still while they pass, too damn bad. Learn how to ride. I’ve raced against people whose only tactic seems to be creative trail blocking (I’ve had guys fall, and pick their bike up directly across the trail, and block everybody.) Nothing can ruin the fun of a race faster than someone who can’t clear the obstacles, and makes sure no one behind him does either. If you can’t handle that, go race road bikes. > 2. The situation of a rider catching a rider in front who is in a > different race, e.g. after the wave start a beginner catches a sport > or, as is common, experts come around and start passing sport or > beginner riders. > I think a similar situation came up in a previous thread or flamefest, > but I wasn’t around for all of it. Just for clarity, I don’t think a > rider caught from behind in another race has to automatically yield to > riders from a faster subgroup of another race. I think this situation > is the same as 3 below.
You’re not racing that person, the situation is completely different. As soon as it’s convenient (and safe) get out of the way. If you make them work to pass you, you deserve to be block passed into the weeds. You gain nothing by holding them up, and they lose time dicing with someone they aren’t even competing against. Blocking faster riders in another class is really bad form. > 3. The situation where one rider catches another from the same race. > The rider in front is not required to yield the trail. How do you > handle passing and what do you do to let the rider ahead know where > you are? I’ve been on both sides of passing/being passed (more often > being passed, I must admit).
These are the people you are racing against. If you’re going to move out of the way, why race? As for the actual pass, there are many ways to go about it. You could over power them on a wide part of the trail. You could wait ’til they bobble, and get by. You could out brake them into a corner, get your front wheel in front of theirs and stuff them into the weeds. etc.etc.etc… Remember, if your front wheel is in front of theirs, you own the line. Use that advantage. > 4. The last item to discuss is how to judge when to pass safely and > how much notice you need to give riders ahead. This depends on the > racing situation and trail conditions, obviously, and will be a > judgement call. It is risky to assume that someone heard and understood > a hurried command of "track" or whatever so you can try to plow through > a narrow trail section with about two inches of room to spare. This > overlaps previous topics, but I thought I’d spell it out and see what > thoughts other riders have.
Jeez, how can someone so risk averse race mountain bikes at all? If you’re going fast enough to do it, of course you just plow through, everybody out there is also a racer, and should know not to make lots of unexpected moves. Why say anything at all? If they are uncomfortable with people blowing by 2 inches away from them, they shouldn’t be racing. Of course, it is nice to give a warning, especially if they are in a different class, in which case yell ‘track’ or ‘rider’ or ‘passing’ before you plow through. — Eric Stradal Austin, TX
Response:
The NORBA rules are pretty specific about passing. Lapped and walking riders must yield to those who are passing. The difficulty arises when you don’t know who is lapping you. But being in this situation a couple of times, I’ve always let people go because I usually know who has the strengh to have lapped me. When it comes down to passing riders in the same race, I usually wait until there is enough where I think I can get by and then pick the other side of the trail that they aren’t using. When my front tire gets even with their back tire, I will say something to them so they don’t come back and take out my tire. But if everyone let you pass that you yelled "TRACK!!" to, what would be the fun in that??? Passing is what keeps the game interesting.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi, all. I have been aware of some conflicts in Southern California > cross country races concerning rights of way on the trail and passing > other riders. I’ve even been part of one or two! So, I’d like to > throw a few things out for discussion. > 1. The situation of a rider walking a bike or a lapped rider > 2. The situation of a rider catching a rider in front who is in a > different race, > 3. The situation where one rider catches another from the same race. > 4. The last item to discuss is how to judge when to pass safely and > how much notice you need to give riders ahead. > Jody White
in northern california, at least in the expert class riders will generally move over for anyone faster. in situation 3 this is generally accompanied by words of encouragement. this is a good reason to race expert instead of one of the sandbagger classes. in situations 1 and 2, i think riders should get over if they perceive that they’re being slow and clogging up the works. i admit that i don’t always have the presence of mind to do it, but every time i’m getting carried away with how bitchen’ i am and how i own the trail, some nor-cal expert pulls over for me and compliments me on how well i’m riding, despite the fact that both of us are 5-10 minutes behind stosh and all the other real racers. then i remember that the reason i quit road racing is because road racers worry about shit like not letting people pass. unless you’re duking it out for a podium spot in the pro-expert field you should mellow out and enjoy the ride since your placing is meaningless to all except your mother. — mark l weaver precision bicycles, carmichael ca (916)488-5353
Response:
Hi, all. I have been aware of some conflicts in Southern California cross country races concerning rights of way on the trail and passing other riders. I’ve even been part of one or two! So, I’d like to throw a few things out for discussion. 1. The situation of a rider walking a bike or a lapped rider on the course. The competition guide states that riders walking bikes must yield to racers riding bikes and lapped riders also must yield to lapping riders. The passing rider is obliged to say "track" and pass safely. It is clear that on a wide climbing fire road, it is easy for a walking rider to walk on the edge of the trail and allow passing riders through. When the trail narrows, say we are in single- track, you can walk on the edge of the trail but the passing space is still narrow. Is the walking rider obligated to stop altogether to try to let anyone through who comes or is he/she only obligated to try to stay on the edge of the trail while advancing a bike? I have seen conflicts over this where a passing rider asserts, "GODDAMMIT! I yelled track, but you were moving" or something like this and I’d like to know what everyone thinks. Personally, I think the competition guide is somewhat vague on this. This is perhaps due to the overlapping rules over you have the right of way but you must pass safely, too. 2. The situation of a rider catching a rider in front who is in a different race, e.g. after the wave start a beginner catches a sport or, as is common, experts come around and start passing sport or beginner riders. I think a similar situation came up in a previous thread or flamefest, but I wasn’t around for all of it. Just for clarity, I don’t think a rider caught from behind in another race has to automatically yield to riders from a faster subgroup of another race. I think this situation is the same as 3 below. 3. The situation where one rider catches another from the same race. The rider in front is not required to yield the trail. How do you handle passing and what do you do to let the rider ahead know where you are? I’ve been on both sides of passing/being passed (more often being passed, I must admit). Most riders attempting to pass say "on your left" or "on your right." I find, probably in part since I’m a little hard of hearing, that it is not always clear what a rider behind said and I really can’t just take my eyes off the trail and turn around to ask, "Excuse me. Could you please repeat that?" I’m happy to let riders pass without unduly obstructing them. If I don’t understand where someone is coming (left vs right) I keep my same line and wait for him to say again where he is. What I find that works fairly well on both ends is to have a loud bell on the bike. You can use the bell to initially signal someone you are there rather than an out of breath grunt and then pass or you can follow the bell with an "on your left" or "on your right". I like a good bell because while I’m focusing on the trail ahead the bell can signal me that someone wants something and then I can try to pay attention to whatever follows. It seems to work well when I pass others, too. 4. The last item to discuss is how to judge when to pass safely and how much notice you need to give riders ahead. This depends on the racing situation and trail conditions, obviously, and will be a judgement call. It is risky to assume that someone heard and understood a hurried command of "track" or whatever so you can try to plow through a narrow trail section with about two inches of room to spare. This overlaps previous topics, but I thought I’d spell it out and see what thoughts other riders have. Thanks. Jody White
no comment untill now